.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Pharmseller]

Cholera kills faster than the plague, on average.

I looked it up.

 

[Reburn]

I'm sorry YOU didn't feel that my post met YOUR criteria for being in line with the "point of this thread" (corrected for typos).

I'm not sure what part of my post exactly you felt the need to correct? Did I ever once contradict your proposed premise that "bigger bullets don't kill better"??

If you want to hunt with a rifle that limits your shots to 400, 450, or 500 yards (not sure which one you are aiming for, cause you referred to all three as plausible max yardages) more power to you. I merely pointed out that the sacred 77tmk/223 combo does not fit all parameters for success, especially if one might consider shots BEYOND 500 yards (your stated range, not mine).

Likewise, just because Form says that 1800fps is a reasonable minimum velocity threshold... does NOT mean that it is unwise for a hunter to consider a "buffer" or a higher margin of error with a few more fps tacked on top. ESPECIALLY if said hunter does NOT have access to the 77tmk and might consider hunting with other bullets that might not have the same awe inspiring terminal characteristics that the 77tmk apparently has. In which case, the maximum yardage applicable would be reduced significantly (300, 350, 400 instead of 400, 450, 500).

You give some new hunter the unqualified advice that they "can kill elk out to 450 yards with their 223rem... " and they take you literally... and whip out their 16 inch barreled AR15, put a 62gr Federal fusion in it (2600fps MV) and go start lobbing bullets??? That's not going to end well! At 450 yards, that fusion bullet is going just a bit over 1500fps!!! And has drifted nearly 14 inches in a mild 5mph breeze.

If Form has the experience necessary to make that shot, great... but there are newbe hunters looking for real information that come to threads like these, read a handful of cute one liners batted back and forth... and come away with the impression that any ole 223rem is a bona-fide 450 yard elk gun under every condition... and that's just not the case if you know how to do the math.

Whether you like it or not, the 223/tmk combo has limits to its applicability. The least of not which is the simple fact that you cannot buy it at this time... and alternatives should be considered on a case by case basis based on their particular performance window and characteristics...

Man you use a lot of words to not say much.

I dont have feelings in this like you.

There are lots of things indicating you don't fully grasp this thread. You were not even able to read my whole post and be able to quote back to me what I said. I dont think you have grasped what I said either.

Yes the 223/77 tmk does have limitations. 450 yards or 1800 fps impact. Which ever comes first.

 

[BjornF16]

Yes the 223/77 tmk does have limitations. 450 yards or 1800 fps impact. Which ever comes first.

The 450 yards that Form talks about has more to do with shooting ability than bullet performance.

Somewhere back a month or two (and maybe 12 pages), Form killed an elk with 77 TMK impact velocity of 1440 fps (iirc). That would be in excess of 800 yards. I also believe Form stated the bullet still exhibited good upset.

 

[Reburn]

quoting form above.

The “450 yard effective range” thing has as much or more to do with the fact that very, very few people practice/train enough to have high probability of success past that 400’ish range.

I believe that he did state that the upset wasnt 100% reliable under 1800fps. But it would still occur most likely

 

[BjornF16]

quoting form above.

The “450 yard effective range” thing has as much or more to do with the fact that very, very few people practice/train enough to have high probability of success past that 400’ish range.

I believe that he did state that the upset wasnt 100% reliable under 1800fps. But it would still occur most likely

Page 140, post 2782

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

Tikka prefit from PVA. I’ll be sure to post up when it arrives. Should be a slick gun with a suppressor. I’m hoping for around 3K out of the 88s. Iv got 77tmk to use in it as well but will probably go with the more efficient bullet. I’m hoping this will be my do it all deer gun. Those...

rokslide.com

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Yes... but...

According to posters here-in, the "huckleberry" is the 77tmk. Apparently, it doesn't have the same level of anecdotal failure rates that can be found represented in other bullet choices.

For example, look at post 2020 refers to the 62 gr gold dots aka federal fusion bullets:

"Shot a few where I only had a quartering towards shot and every one of them gimped off with only 3 legs working never to be seen again. The 70gr Barnes smoked right through and exited with the same shot. My best guess is they were hitting the shoulder blade and turning but I never found one to confirm. Behind the shoulder, through the chest, or neck they dropped or didn’t go far. These were central VA deer too which aren’t big animals."

Form later responds and says he got penetration under conditions... but that still doesn't resolve the fact that at least for those "few" deer, the 62gr Gold Dot did NOT work in a preferred manner.

Furthermore, with the reduced BC of the 62gr gold dot bullet, (which you aren't likely to get more than 2600fps MV out of a 16 inch barrel...) that will drop below even Form's stated minimum impact velocity threshold of 1800fps at just 335 yards. If you want to stick with a higher buffer, like 2000fps minimum velocity... that puts it at 245 yards max range for minimum terminal performance.

So... if you want to hunt with a rifle bullet combo that limits you to 245 yards... by all means, try out the 62gr fusion.

However, new hunters should NOT be encouraged to think that its a good idea to pick up a box of federal fusion off the shelf, to then go hunt an elk with their 16 inch barreled AR15 out to 450 yards.

For me, I like a bullet combo that is going to give me 2000fps minimum velocity impact at 600 yards... with a short and suppressed barrel. That means a 22creed or 22-250 with the right twist could be an option, but the 223/tmk or any other 223 combo isn't going to have the juice.

I guess I'm failing to understand what you're getting at with your posts. Are you trying to warn people that the 77gr TMK shouldn't be recommended over 450 yards? That people should go up in caliber to be able to get ammo that's available? Or that your requirement is to have a round that performs at 600 yards and that the 77gr TMK 223 doesn't have the juice for that?

No one in this thread is trying to recommend shooting beyond their ability or the ability of the bullet to perform. If you think a newbie would read this thread and go use some 223 55gr spire points to shoot an elk, they clearly lack comprehension that going up in caliber will not solve.

 

[packgoatguy]

There are quite a few bullets that are reliable killers in .224. The 77gr TMK and heavy ELD-M’s are “destructive”.





Complete and udder bullshit.

Let me rephrase- is it possible that a “few” 62gr Golddots “skipped off” a piece of cardboard (“shoulder”)? Sure, everything has a probability. But that is about as likely statistically as a 30cal 180gr Accubond doing the same thing- in other words… yeah no.






You are writing a lot, with no experience. Fusion/Gold Dots are as reliable in performance as any bullet made.






I would kill every elk walking at 450 yards from a 10.5” barrel and 62gr Fusions, let alone a 16”. I’ve seem the results of hundreds of test shots, and hundreds of larger mammals killed with Gold Dots to just past 440 yards from short barrels- they kill like the plague.


The “450 yard effective range” thing has as much or more to do with the fact that very, very few people practice/train enough to have high probability of success past that 400’ish range.





And if that’s your priority- sure. However, Reburn’s last post is much more inline with the gist of it all than what you are presenting.

Now Form,
Let's put your numbers to the test here:

450 yards out of a 10.5 inch 223rem, with 62gr Gold Dots.

MV out of my factory tikka 223, I get about 2800-2850fps with factory fusion ammo depending on temps. Take off 12-14 inches of barrel length, using your 30fps per inch model you have mentioned before... that puts the velocity out of your 10.5 inch barrel at around 2400-2500fps. Please correct me if you have a more accurate MV for this analysis.

I plug that into my ballistic calculator, and that gives me an impact velocity of just 1400-1500fps, with a wind drift of over 15 inches in a 5mph breeze.

Using your own words:

"Best bullet performance is attained with ELD-X/ELD-M and TMK’s above 1,800fps- that is rapid and significant upset/fragmentation with acceptable penetration"

"Actually for what most would consider “good” performance, 1,800’ish FPS is the limit"

"I would suggest 1,800fps as a lower limit generally, and you will still get devastating wounds at that."

"As long as I achieve 1,800fos at the range I require, I want as short as possible. If it doesn’t hit 1,800fps at range, than I go bigger cartridge"


Form, these are all YOUR words. Please clarify... because it sounds like you are advocating the use of 62gr Golddots out of 10.5 inch 223rem barrels for elk at 450 yards... which falls quite a bit below the velocity/performance thresholds you have guided us towards for quite some time now.

 

[Pharmseller]

Packgoatguy,
What is your goal in this back and forth?

You seem uncomfortably adamant.

Use them if you want, don’t use them if you want, be happy in whatever choice you make.




P

 

[Formidilosus]

Now Form,
Let's put your numbers to the test here:

Using your own words:

"Best bullet performance is attained with ELD-X/ELD-M and TMK’s above 1,800fps- that is rapid and significant upset/fragmentation with acceptable penetration"

"Actually for what most would consider “good” performance, 1,800’ish FPS is the limit"

"I would suggest 1,800fps as a lower limit generally, and you will still get devastating wounds at that."

"As long as I achieve 1,800fos at the range I require, I want as short as possible. If it doesn’t hit 1,800fps at range, than I go bigger cartridge"

Do you understand the difference between “optimum” and “adequate”?

Form, these are all YOUR words. Please clarify... because it sounds like you are advocating the use of 62gr Golddots out of 10.5 inch 223rem barrels for elk at 450 yards... which falls quite a bit below the velocity/performance thresholds you have guided us towards for quite some time now.

I am not advocating anything. What is your point here? You are writing a lot, but it’s not clear what you are trying to say?

 

[packgoatguy]

Do you understand the difference between “optimum” and “adequate”?






I am not advocating anything. What is your point here? You are writing a lot, but it’s not clear what you are trying to say?

My apologies sir, if you were not in fact "advocating anything" I would never want to take your words out of context.

It's just that your comment in response to my comment, sounded a lot like you were advocating for... or at the very least defending the prudence of using a 62gr gold dot at 1400fps impact velocity.

Quote:

However, new hunters should NOT be encouraged to think that its a good idea to pick up a box of federal fusion off the shelf, to then go hunt an elk with their 16 inch barreled AR15 out to 450 yards.

Quote (response)

"I would kill every elk walking at 450 yards from a 10.5” barrel and 62gr Fusions, let alone a 16”. I’ve seem the results of hundreds of test shots, and hundreds of larger mammals killed with Gold Dots to just past 440 yards from short barrels- they kill like the plague."

 

[fwafwow]

Using your own words:

"Best bullet performance is attained with ELD-X/ELD-M and TMK’s above 1,800fps- that is rapid and significant upset/fragmentation with acceptable penetration"

"Actually for what most would consider “good” performance, 1,800’ish FPS is the limit"

"I would suggest 1,800fps as a lower limit generally, and you will still get devastating wounds at that."

Unsolicited advice - I’d let it go. And I am the pot speaking to the kettle, as I could have used the same advice over the weekend when I went on a rant in the credit card thread.

 

[packgoatguy]

Packgoatguy,
What is your goal in this back and forth?

You seem uncomfortably adamant.

Use them if you want, don’t use them if you want, be happy in whatever choice you make.




P

If you are honestly seeking an answer, it will take but a few minutes to read all of the posts I've contributed to this thread since early this morning.

That said, my initial post was referring to several preceeding posts where the general 'back and forth' highlighted several concerns that i have with the discussion that has evolved here over the years, which at its core was concerning whether a 223rem could and should be used for hunting big game... and whether it should be used when other alternatives exist.

The tone of many of the posts in this thread, suggest that the 223rem is the end-all-be-all choice for all north American big game, a position often unqualified or expounded upon. And any point of view to the contrary is often met with vehement opposition. Often the caviate is added that the 77tmk paired with the 223rem is what makes it such an ideal killing option. However, whether it is or isn't is largely an academic discussion, because many who read this thread will likely never lay eyes on a 77tmk... as they are virtually impossible to find without dedicated and prolonged effort. So... I was merely pointing out, that where the 77tmk is purported to be effective out to 400-450 yards because of its particular performance characteristics, then it would be wise to clarify the actual yardages that it would be wise to recommend hunting with any lesser effective bullet choices that one might be left with.

I would also add that, while I did not directly address it before, one of the other comments that I had intended to discuss was the comparison between a gut shot with a 300wm and a vitals hit with a 223rem... this is a tired, and dare I say somewhat trite argument... and in my opinion distracts from the core discussion... the real question is what is the difference in performance between adequate shot placement hits (as differentiated between ideal placement). Some may have valid concerns about smaller bullets not causing as much damage in a slightly less than ideal situation... and if they feel more comfortable using a larger projectile to provide a greater margin of error... then more power to them.

Couple quick examples;
My son took a doe several years ago with my tikka 243. Sub 200 yards. The doe ran off, with no blood trail. We searched for several hours, and luckily found her. She had only traveled a couple hundred yards, but without a blood trail, she was extremely hard to find. His bullet entered a bit far back, certainly not gut shot, but not ideal. My other son, the next year, had an almost identical shot profile and hit placement, but his 6.5 creedmoor bullet exited, and the blood trail was good, and the deer only went about 75 yards. I certainly could never say for sure, but my impression was that the 6.5 bullet was a bit more forgiving under fairly similar situations. The next year, my older son made a perfect broadside shot on a cow elk at 465 yards. When I say "perfect" I mean "textbook" shot placement, behind the crease of the front shoulder, right where you would see the crosshairs in a hunter safety book. However... the 200gr eldx bullet fired from his 300wm (tikka) nicked one if those ribs on impact, and somehow the bullet split in two. One (the smaller of the two pieces) kept going straight through the lungs, but the larger piece went 90 degrees and through the diaphragm. No exit from either. After his shot, I lost track of which elk he had shot at... and luckily I was able to get the spotter on her before she disappeared. But by then she was more that 700 yards away and outside of his range for a follow up shot. By my estimate, she kept breathing for nearly 3 minutes and over 300 yards of travel. Had I not had a good idea where she had gone (with the spotter) we might not have found her before the wolves did... as the snow picked up and dumped several inches in the next couple hours. Ultimately, I was grateful it had at least been that large of a bullet, because even the mighty 300wm did not drop her in her tracks, inspite of a perfect shot.

Am I telling you that you are an unethical hunter if you choose to hunt with a 223rem/77TMK? No, especially if you hunt within its limits. I have personally taken several deer over the years with a 223rem. However, in any discussion about the viability of the 223rem as a big game hunting round, I believe that we should be careful to explain its reasonable limitations and differentiate the circumstances under which it is ideal. For me, that is simple. There are too many times and situations where I hunt that might require a shot in EXCESS of 450 yards, and thus the 223rem with any bullet just doesn't have the bc necessary to get it there with enough velocity left or without meaningful wind deflection. On the other hand, If the stars ever align and I can come across a box of 77tmk, I'm not opposed to giving it a try in my t3... if the situation made sense... as I've got a few hunting options and locations I could forsee being limited in range enough to leave other higher bc options at home.

In summary... you asked for my point ... well, the point of this whole thread is to allow rokslide members the chance to respectfully debate the pros and cons of the 223rem's use on big game. I had not seen the analysis I proffered earlier today in any of the preceding pages, so I thought that perhaps someone would find my perspective useful. If you don't, that's fine. You don't have to. But, I will say... we are a community of sportsmen and sportswomen... we often share a similar ethos. I believe it is important to point out areas of concern for the next generation to consider, as I hope that we can pass along the ideals of ethics and the morality of the hunting heritage that is presently under fire in our country. I welcome and promote well reasoned debate that will hopefully help the next generation of hunters carry on for generations to come.

 

[JP100]

Might as well chuck in my 2cents.......

Lots of opinions and stretched truths here so far. The .223 is capable of killing deer sized game, but it is no comparison to even a .243

We've ( between my brother, myself and clients) shot a few thousand animals with the .223, a few thousand with a .243 and hundreds with .260,.308,7mm08,300wsm and a few other bits a pieces.

Last week we shot 79 goats, 5 red deer, 6 pigs, 1 fallow deer and one chamois with a mix of the .223 and 308.

The .223 is perfectly capable, but I would say beyond even 200 yards things start to run out of juice.

A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection.

Im all for shooting small cartridges, and use only 'just' enough gun. But you have to be realistic when using small calibers.

 

[PNWGATOR]

It’s about hit rates and wound channels. It’s really that simple.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Might as well chuck in my 2cents.......

Lots of opinions and stretched truths here so far. The .223 is capable of killing deer sized game, but it is no comparison to even a .243

We've ( between my brother, myself and clients) shot a few thousand animals with the .223, a few thousand with a .243 and hundreds with .260,.308,7mm08,300wsm and a few other bits a pieces.

Last week we shot 79 goats, 5 red deer, 6 pigs, 1 fallow deer and one chamois with a mix of the .223 and 308.

The .223 is perfectly capable, but I would say beyond even 200 yards things start to run out of juice.

A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection.

Im all for shooting small cartridges, and use only 'just' enough gun. But you have to be realistic when using small calibers.

what bullet out of the .223 are you killing these animals with?

 

[Castle Rock]

If you are honestly seeking an answer, it will take but a few minutes to read all of the posts I've contributed to this thread since early this morning.

That said, my initial post was referring to several preceeding posts where the general 'back and forth' highlighted several concerns that i have with the discussion that has evolved here over the years, which at its core was concerning whether a 223rem could and should be used for hunting big game... and whether it should be used when other alternatives exist.

The tone of many of the posts in this thread, suggest that the 223rem is the end-all-be-all choice for all north American big game, a position often unqualified or expounded upon. And any point of view to the contrary is often met with vehement opposition. Often the caviate is added that the 77tmk paired with the 223rem is what makes it such an ideal killing option. However, whether it is or isn't is largely an academic discussion, because many who read this thread will likely never lay eyes on a 77tmk... as they are virtually impossible to find without dedicated and prolonged effort. So... I was merely pointing out, that where the 77tmk is purported to be effective out to 400-450 yards because of its particular performance characteristics, then it would be wise to clarify the actual yardages that it would be wise to recommend hunting with any lesser effective bullet choices that one might be left with.

I would also add that, while I did not directly address it before, one of the other comments that I had intended to discuss was the comparison between a gut shot with a 300wm and a vitals hit with a 223rem... this is a tired, and dare I say somewhat trite argument... and in my opinion distracts from the core discussion... the real question is what is the difference in performance between adequate shot placement hits (as differentiated between ideal placement). Some may have valid concerns about smaller bullets not causing as much damage in a slightly less than ideal situation... and if they feel more comfortable using a larger projectile to provide a greater margin of error... then more power to them.

Couple quick examples;
My son took a doe several years ago with my tikka 243. Sub 200 yards. The doe ran off, with no blood trail. We searched for several hours, and luckily found her. She had only traveled a couple hundred yards, but without a blood trail, she was extremely hard to find. His bullet entered a bit far back, certainly not gut shot, but not ideal. My other son, the next year, had an almost identical shot profile and hit placement, but his 6.5 creedmoor bullet exited, and the blood trail was good, and the deer only went about 75 yards. I certainly could never say for sure, but my impression was that the 6.5 bullet was a bit more forgiving under fairly similar situations. The next year, my older son made a perfect broadside shot on a cow elk at 465 yards. When I say "perfect" I mean "textbook" shot placement, behind the crease of the front shoulder, right where you would see the crosshairs in a hunter safety book. However... the 200gr eldx bullet fired from his 300wm (tikka) nicked one if those ribs on impact, and somehow the bullet split in two. One (the smaller of the two pieces) kept going straight through the lungs, but the larger piece went 90 degrees and through the diaphragm. No exit from either. After his shot, I lost track of which elk he had shot at... and luckily I was able to get the spotter on her before she disappeared. But by then she was more that 700 yards away and outside of his range for a follow up shot. By my estimate, she kept breathing for nearly 3 minutes and over 300 yards of travel. Had I not had a good idea where she had gone (with the spotter) we might not have found her before the wolves did... as the snow picked up and dumped several inches in the next couple hours. Ultimately, I was grateful it had at least been that large of a bullet, because even the mighty 300wm did not drop her in her tracks, inspite of a perfect shot.

Am I telling you that you are an unethical hunter if you choose to hunt with a 223rem/77TMK? No, especially if you hunt within its limits. I have personally taken several deer over the years with a 223rem. However, in any discussion about the viability of the 223rem as a big game hunting round, I believe that we should be careful to explain its reasonable limitations and differentiate the circumstances under which it is ideal. For me, that is simple. There are too many times and situations where I hunt that might require a shot in EXCESS of 450 yards, and thus the 223rem with any bullet just doesn't have the bc necessary to get it there with enough velocity left or without meaningful wind deflection. On the other hand, If the stars ever align and I can come across a box of 77tmk, I'm not opposed to giving it a try in my t3... if the situation made sense... as I've got a few hunting options and locations I could forsee being limited in range enough to leave other higher bc options at home.

In summary... you asked for my point ... well, the point of this whole thread is to allow rokslide members the chance to respectfully debate the pros and cons of the 223rem's use on big game. I had not seen the analysis I proffered earlier today in any of the preceding pages, so I thought that perhaps someone would find my perspective useful. If you don't, that's fine. You don't have to. But, I will say... we are a community of sportsmen and sportswomen... we often share a similar ethos. I believe it is important to point out areas of concern for the next generation to consider, as I hope that we can pass along the ideals of ethics and the morality of the hunting heritage that is presently under fire in our country. I welcome and promote well reasoned debate that will hopefully help the next generation of hunters carry on for generations to come.

As always it is those who speak or write the most that say the least

 

[packgoatguy]

It’s about hit rates and wound channels. It’s really that simple.

Perhaps you could expound on that a bit... cause it sounds like you are implying that you'd pick the 223rem if you want to hit stuff... and anyone who doesn't use a 223... isn't going to hit stuff??

I haven't taken the hundreds and hundreds of big game animals that Form says he has... but between myself and my kids, wife, nieces, nephews, and other family members or friends who use my rifles to hunt... we are well over 60 deer, elk, or antelope in the last 7 years or so. Mostly with young, inexperienced hunters... and we have lost only 3 animals that were shot at... two due to scope issues, (no animals died that we didnt recover) one clean miss with a kid rushing the shot, one of the scope issue shots was also a clean miss, and the 3rd, the bullet grazed the animal (non mortal wound). Calibers including 243win, 6.5cm, 7mm08, 308win, 270win, 300wm, 28-nosler. Most were with the 6.5cm and 300wm. All but a couple were one shot kills, and the few that took a second shot were lethal, but a follow up shot seemed wise at the time. Many shots in the 400-550 range. Most in the 300-400 range, and some in the sub 300 yards category. Almost all of our hunting is done on foot, at least 2-3 miles from the truck, mostly with the 2000ft or more in elevation gain... so not easy conditions.

So... I'd say we have a pretty high "hit rate" with calibers other than the 223rem.

That said... I ensure every kid is fully supported every time, they don't take running shots, we start with accurate loads, scopes are dialed to particular ranges, and they don't take long shots under extreme conditions (ie a heavy crosswind, etc).

 

[BjornF16]

Never felt the need to use the ignore feature…until now

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Never felt the need to use the ignore feature…until now

It's such a great feature

 

[11Justin22]

Might as well chuck in my 2cents.......

Lots of opinions and stretched truths here so far. The .223 is capable of killing deer sized game, but it is no comparison to even a .243

We've ( between my brother, myself and clients) shot a few thousand animals with the .223, a few thousand with a .243 and hundreds with .260,.308,7mm08,300wsm and a few other bits a pieces.

Last week we shot 79 goats, 5 red deer, 6 pigs, 1 fallow deer and one chamois with a mix of the .223 and 308.

The .223 is perfectly capable, but I would say beyond even 200 yards things start to run out of juice.

A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection.

Im all for shooting small cartridges, and use only 'just' enough gun. But you have to be realistic when using small calibers.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. Bullet selection is everything. Even before shooting the TMK at animals I had discovered this years ago with medium bore cartridges. I shot two deer back to back with the TMK last year at 200 yards. Damage was beyond what I have seen for years with bonded bullets(several different types). I shot two deer this year with a 6.5 creed at 25 and 30 yards using accubonds. Larger caliber, shorter range=more damage right? Not even close. I pulled lungs out with a half dollar size hole though them, the TMK turned everything in the front half to jello. Not saying there was anything wrong with the accubonds at all but to say that bullet selection doesn't matter is just plain wrong.