Packgoatguy,
What is your goal in this back and forth?
You seem uncomfortably adamant.
Use them if you want, don’t use them if you want, be happy in whatever choice you make.
P
If you are honestly seeking an answer, it will take but a few minutes to read all of the posts I've contributed to this thread since early this morning.
That said, my initial post was referring to several preceeding posts where the general 'back and forth' highlighted several concerns that i have with the discussion that has evolved here over the years, which at its core was concerning whether a 223rem could and should be used for hunting big game... and whether it should be used when other alternatives exist.
The tone of many of the posts in this thread, suggest that the 223rem is the end-all-be-all choice for all north American big game, a position often unqualified or expounded upon. And any point of view to the contrary is often met with vehement opposition. Often the caviate is added that the 77tmk paired with the 223rem is what makes it such an ideal killing option. However, whether it is or isn't is largely an academic discussion, because many who read this thread will likely never lay eyes on a 77tmk... as they are virtually impossible to find without dedicated and prolonged effort. So... I was merely pointing out, that where the 77tmk is purported to be effective out to 400-450 yards because of its particular performance characteristics, then it would be wise to clarify the actual yardages that it would be wise to recommend hunting with any lesser effective bullet choices that one might be left with.
I would also add that, while I did not directly address it before, one of the other comments that I had intended to discuss was the comparison between a gut shot with a 300wm and a vitals hit with a 223rem... this is a tired, and dare I say somewhat trite argument... and in my opinion distracts from the core discussion... the real question is what is the difference in performance between adequate shot placement hits (as differentiated between ideal placement). Some may have valid concerns about smaller bullets not causing as much damage in a slightly less than ideal situation... and if they feel more comfortable using a larger projectile to provide a greater margin of error... then more power to them.
Couple quick examples;
My son took a doe several years ago with my tikka 243. Sub 200 yards. The doe ran off, with no blood trail. We searched for several hours, and luckily found her. She had only traveled a couple hundred yards, but without a blood trail, she was extremely hard to find. His bullet entered a bit far back, certainly not gut shot, but not ideal. My other son, the next year, had an almost identical shot profile and hit placement, but his 6.5 creedmoor bullet exited, and the blood trail was good, and the deer only went about 75 yards. I certainly could never say for sure, but my impression was that the 6.5 bullet was a bit more forgiving under fairly similar situations. The next year, my older son made a perfect broadside shot on a cow elk at 465 yards. When I say "perfect" I mean "textbook" shot placement, behind the crease of the front shoulder, right where you would see the crosshairs in a hunter safety book. However... the 200gr eldx bullet fired from his 300wm (tikka) nicked one if those ribs on impact, and somehow the bullet split in two. One (the smaller of the two pieces) kept going straight through the lungs, but the larger piece went 90 degrees and through the diaphragm. No exit from either. After his shot, I lost track of which elk he had shot at... and luckily I was able to get the spotter on her before she disappeared. But by then she was more that 700 yards away and outside of his range for a follow up shot. By my estimate, she kept breathing for nearly 3 minutes and over 300 yards of travel. Had I not had a good idea where she had gone (with the spotter) we might not have found her before the wolves did... as the snow picked up and dumped several inches in the next couple hours. Ultimately, I was grateful it had at least been that large of a bullet, because even the mighty 300wm did not drop her in her tracks, inspite of a perfect shot.
Am I telling you that you are an unethical hunter if you choose to hunt with a 223rem/77TMK? No, especially if you hunt within its limits. I have personally taken several deer over the years with a 223rem. However, in any discussion about the viability of the 223rem as a big game hunting round, I believe that we should be careful to explain its reasonable limitations and differentiate the circumstances under which it is ideal. For me, that is simple. There are too many times and situations where I hunt that might require a shot in EXCESS of 450 yards, and thus the 223rem with any bullet just doesn't have the bc necessary to get it there with enough velocity left or without meaningful wind deflection. On the other hand, If the stars ever align and I can come across a box of 77tmk, I'm not opposed to giving it a try in my t3... if the situation made sense... as I've got a few hunting options and locations I could forsee being limited in range enough to leave other higher bc options at home.
In summary... you asked for my point ... well, the point of this whole thread is to allow rokslide members the chance to respectfully debate the pros and cons of the 223rem's use on big game. I had not seen the analysis I proffered earlier today in any of the preceding pages, so I thought that perhaps someone would find my perspective useful. If you don't, that's fine. You don't have to. But, I will say... we are a community of sportsmen and sportswomen... we often share a similar ethos. I believe it is important to point out areas of concern for the next generation to consider, as I hope that we can pass along the ideals of ethics and the morality of the hunting heritage that is presently under fire in our country. I welcome and promote well reasoned debate that will hopefully help the next generation of hunters carry on for generations to come.
look, i even found the emoji button... can I play with the big kids now?
