Pretty sure 142 SMK’s were around a long long time prior to heavy 6.5mm marketing.
Why is the .270 dying?
- Thread starter whoami-72
- Start date
So it being born into the world as a target cartridge and being loaded with various bullets designed as long range target bullets doesn't count? Hmmm Well it would be a heck of a metal silhouette cartridge for sure. As for being designed as a target cartridge chambers often have tighter throats, freebores are usually configured for match style bullets and shoulders are often sharper to extend case life and make for more consistant headspace. Does that sound like the 6.5 CM to you?
The reason the 270 has generally a 1-10 twist being that flat based spitzer bullets of a weight commonly found when it was designed were not all that long and round nose bullets were very popular at that time also. Optical sights were not especially common back then either and those that were available could be considered crude with generally low magnification.
I have 3 270 rifles, all three are fine shooters. My least accurate is an Encore, this from a tracking test of an old Bausch and Lomb scope.
These two targets were shot with rifles that had match chambers.
The number of people who are handloaders in the realm of total hunters/shooters is very small. Can you show me any factory loaded precision target loads for the 270? Right now on Midway USA, there are 75 offerings for the 6.5 Creedmoor that have "hunting" bullets loaded in them. There are 32 offerings with "match" or "target" bullets in them. Doesn't sound like just a target cartridge to me.
Jay
roadrunner
WKR
Okay...and?
Just sounds like a cartridge made with modern cartridge design for modern bullets, modern powders, and has the chamber and case design that every wildcatted cartridge tried to achieve! Hot Dog, we have progress in the air! Pretty soon they will be cutting every chamber to match spec's.So it being born into the world as a target cartridge and being loaded with various bullets designed as long range target bullets doesn't count? Hmmm Well it would be a heck of a metal silhouette cartridge for sure. As for being designed as a target cartridge chambers often have tighter throats, freebores are usually configured for match style bullets and shoulders are often sharper to extend case life and make for more consistant headspace. Does that sound like the 6.5 CM to you?
The reason the 270 has generally a 1-10 twist being that flat based spitzer bullets of a weight commonly found when it was designed were not all that long and round nose bullets were very popular at that time also. Optical sights were not especially common back then either and those that were available could be considered crude with generally low magnification.
I have 3 270 rifles, all three are fine shooters. My least accurate is an Encore, this from a tracking test of an old Bausch and Lomb scope.
These two targets were shot with rifles that had match chambers.
Jay
P.S. I killed everything (antelope, whitetail, mule deer, elk, bighorn sheep ewe, black bear, coyotes, fox and even ground squirrels) from the age of 12 to 26 with Winchester M70 Featherweight in 270 Winchester topped with a 4x Leupold that I got for Christmas in 1988. I have a long history with the 270 using both factory and handloaded ammo. That rifle is the reason I have no desire to shoot paper targets. Little tiny groups are boring. Fun starts at 500.
Can you show me any serious match shooters that run factory ammo other than to collect brass? And the number of said serious match rats that actually use Hornady brass? I didn't say it was just a target cartridge I said it was born to compete certain types of match shooting such as PRS. That was a while back and now it seems the 6CM has become their darling. The 30-06 has a long and rich history in matches but it was born a military round.
Haha!!! I bet that was quite the show!
All new bullets in .277
270 Caliber 170 Grain Elite Hunter Rifle Bullet
Elite Hunter Bullets are identical in construction, shape and performance to the Berger Hybrid Target series, except they utilize a thinner J4 Precision Jacket for rapid expansion on game animals.bergerbullets.com
270 Caliber 165gr AccuBond Long Range
270 Caliber 165gr AccuBond® Long Range NOTE: Requires a Minimum 1-9" Twistwww.nosler.com
Barnes has a heavy .277 bullet
Sierra has a 175g 277 bullet
Basically, Hornady is the only major hunting bullet maker without a heavy for caliber bullet because they want people to buy 6.5PRC ammo.
Change is coming. Right now, people can buy a factory x-bolt 270 with a 1/7.5 twist barrel.
Berger has a heavy .277 because they were making bullets for the Extreme Outer Limits guys who wanted the heaviest possible bullet for hunting in pretty much every caliber. They were also offering fast twist barrels on their to .270’s to use them.
Nosler has heavy .277 bullets because they came up with the 27 Nosler and needed heavy for caliber bullets to take advantage of the extra case capacity. Barnes and Sierra followed after the 27 Nosler and 6.8 Western came out.
UnckleBob
WKR
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You literally just proved my point. There are new .277 bullets coming out.
UnckleBob
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Why? The 270 is a hunting cartridge.
That's like pointing out my Tundra is not very fuel efficient.
When you only own 1 rifle, you shoot everything with it. I didn't get my own 22lr until I was 26. At the time, Remington CoreLokt 130gr were $9.99 a box and went on sale for hunting season at $7.99. I'd spend $50 on ammo for the year. It was what it was.
Jay
The 270 is just an engine to propell a bullet. The 277 bullets have not kept up with modern designs because of the 10 twist. This keeps the 270 from gaining new market shares and slowly losing the current market share it has. The 270 isn't a "target cartridge" because the bullet selection is best described as hunting bullets for short to mid range hunting and excessive recoil when compared to other cartridges with better bullet selection. The 270 Winchester will never go away but it will continue to lose market shares to other cartridges that are just simply easier to shoot and come with inherent performance gains due to the components used in their design and manufacture.
Jay
The 170gr .277 Berger has been out for 10+ years. It's not new and wasn't made for the Extreme Outer Limits group. That bullet was made prior to Bob Beck having any influence on Berger making heavy for caliber bullets. Bob did have influence on the manufactur of the 156 6.5mm, the 195 7mm, and the 245 .308 bullets being built. The only new bullets in .277 came with the introduction of the 6.8 Western and those are far too long to be used in the 270 Winchester with the SAAMI approved 1/10" twist.
Jay
Edit... I found my old threads on another forum and it was Bob Beck that initiated the 170 grain EOL bullet and it was the first bullet designed for the EOL lineup. The first discussions and field use for testers was in 2012.
My point is all the .277 bullets coming out are directly to sell new cartridges, not because they suddenly decided to increase the performance of the .270 Winchester.
You said about how Hornady isn’t making heavy .277 bullets because they want to sell the 6.5 PRC. Meanwhile the other companies are making them to increase the sales of their own cartridge, either the 27 Nosler or 6.8 Western or for the company they partnered with.
The old 270 has survived and prospered many a fad in rifle cartridges. It’s demise has been predicted many times since the first magnum craze in the 50s/60s. This long range one will pass as well. Any case, impressive to still be in the mix after 100 yesrs
Lou
Two things can be true at once. Imo usually are.
The long range “fad” wont pass, because there is no down-side to it for the people not participating, and because the industry is making $ at it. Which is the entire point folks are making in why they might opt for a different cartridge today. Its both marketing hype and real benefit for shooters, even if its not relevant for most hunters.
Regardless, the answer to the OP’s question is driven by factory rifles and factory ammo. Handloading and customizing rifles is a low-enough % of the market that I dont think its relevant to the question. The market is being driven by the ability to do all those things off the shelf.
Yes, the entire premise of the question is FALSE, the 270 is very much alive and just as relevant and performs just as well today as it did 50 years ago. But its a hunting-only cartridge, whereas many of the newer options are perfectly legit hunting cartridges while also being top choices for competitive and recreational target shooting. The question could just as easily be “why dont I see 270win rifles at prs, NRL or fclass matches?”, and the answers would apply to this topic as well.
Also yes, other cartridges offer similar on-game performance, but also offer other benefits that require customization to achieve with a 270. It is entirely irrelevant if those things can be achieved in a 270 via handloading or a new barrel…the entire point is to be able to do it off the shelf because most people are using factory guns with factory ammo. The 6.8western and 277 fury may have resulted in the existance of 1:8” barrels and higher bc bullets for hand-loading, which is great…but come talk to us when we can buy our choice of any factory 270win rifle in 1:8” and factory loaded 270win ammo with 165+gr bullets in bulk for target shooting.
Also, also yes, hunters do not drive the ammo market. Shooters do, and that is not the same. Shooters ARE interested in the incremental benefit provided by higher bc bullets, lower recoil, etc that arent available off the shelf in a 270win. The proof is visible anywhere you look…
1) when is the last time you saw 200-round “value packs” of 270win ammo? I have 200rnd containers of budget 6.5cm ammo as we speak. Hunters writ large buy a box or three of rifle ammo per year. Shooters buy multiple flats at a time.
2) raise your hand if you’ve personally fired over 1000rounds of 270win ammo in the past 12 months? Guessing its not many people…but theres dozens just on this site that have fired that many and more in 6.5cm, 6cm, etc bolt action rifles. This is simply a measure of demand and what is driviing the market…it isnt hunting in the big picture, it is target shooting which is then trickling down to hunting.
The long range “fad” wont pass, because there is no down-side to it for the people not participating, and because the industry is making $ at it. Which is the entire point folks are making in why they might opt for a different cartridge today. Its both marketing hype and real benefit for shooters, even if its not relevant for most hunters.
Regardless, the answer to the OP’s question is driven by factory rifles and factory ammo. Handloading and customizing rifles is a low-enough % of the market that I dont think its relevant to the question. The market is being driven by the ability to do all those things off the shelf.
Yes, the entire premise of the question is FALSE, the 270 is very much alive and just as relevant and performs just as well today as it did 50 years ago. But its a hunting-only cartridge, whereas many of the newer options are perfectly legit hunting cartridges while also being top choices for competitive and recreational target shooting. The question could just as easily be “why dont I see 270win rifles at prs, NRL or fclass matches?”, and the answers would apply to this topic as well.
Also yes, other cartridges offer similar on-game performance, but also offer other benefits that require customization to achieve with a 270. It is entirely irrelevant if those things can be achieved in a 270 via handloading or a new barrel…the entire point is to be able to do it off the shelf because most people are using factory guns with factory ammo. The 6.8western and 277 fury may have resulted in the existance of 1:8” barrels and higher bc bullets for hand-loading, which is great…but come talk to us when we can buy our choice of any factory 270win rifle in 1:8” and factory loaded 270win ammo with 165+gr bullets in bulk for target shooting.
Also, also yes, hunters do not drive the ammo market. Shooters do, and that is not the same. Shooters ARE interested in the incremental benefit provided by higher bc bullets, lower recoil, etc that arent available off the shelf in a 270win. The proof is visible anywhere you look…
1) when is the last time you saw 200-round “value packs” of 270win ammo? I have 200rnd containers of budget 6.5cm ammo as we speak. Hunters writ large buy a box or three of rifle ammo per year. Shooters buy multiple flats at a time.
2) raise your hand if you’ve personally fired over 1000rounds of 270win ammo in the past 12 months? Guessing its not many people…but theres dozens just on this site that have fired that many and more in 6.5cm, 6cm, etc bolt action rifles. This is simply a measure of demand and what is driviing the market…it isnt hunting in the big picture, it is target shooting which is then trickling down to hunting.
HandgunHTR
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Get your logic out of here! This thread is about feelers!
For many years, up til the early 90's there was always a round nose offering from Remington and Winchester. Even the old standard Federal 150 was a round nose bullet. It was a cult. For some reason people liked bullets that expanded wide, had the weight to penetrate deeply and s lot of the time shot very well from their rifles. Weird.It sure looks like a round nose to me. Remington seems to think so too. That is one reason I usually preferred the 130-grain Core Lokt as cheap efficient hunting ammo, since it has the "Pointed Soft Point" and maintains 1800 FPS out to 500 yards (not that I have ever shot a game animal at that range, but we are talking about theoretical comparisons with "more modern cartridges." So comparing like with like is only fair. Comparing round nose loads with spitzers makes the .270 look much worse than it is.).
Buy Core-Lokt 270 Win Ammo | 150 Grain, 2850 FPS | Remington
Shopping for the Core-Lokt, 270 Win, 150 Grain, Core-Lokt Soft Point, 2850 fps - Learn more about the latest Shop All Calibers and other hunting or shooting gear at Remington.www.remington.com
View attachment 916797
View attachment 916803
That's not to say that I don't agree with you on the effectiveness out to about 320 yards for the Core-Lokt Soft Point (that's approximately where it gets down to 1800 FPS, per Remington's data). But it is a round nose bullet in the Remington 150-grain Core-Lokt load. Which I why, when I used heavier bullets, I generally preferred to use the Federal Premium Vital-Shok .270 Winchester loaded with 150-grain Sierra GameKing Boat Tails in my .270s. It almost certainly didn't make a hill of beans difference to any whitetail I ever shot with my .270s, but I was happier with the choice of the round that was more effective if I ever chose to take a longer shot. Loaded with the 130- and 150-grain spitzers, the venerable old .270 more than holds its own against "modern modern cartridges" and is very cost effective.
Target shooters do not drive the ammo market, plinkers do. You can loosely lump these guys with “target shooters” but they are the guys who buy whitebox Win, cci blazer, etc in 223, 308, 7.62x39 not lapua brass and match bullets. Hunting ammo is next. Since you talk about logic go to a store and see how much “prs” ammo you see on shelf vs “hunting” ammo. What 20-30 offerings to 1. I am stealing this quote from somewhere else but there are more hunters in a couple of counties in PA than compete in PRS across the country. The few thousand high volume shooters do not offset the millions and millions of fudds who buy a box or 2 a year for deer hunting. Norma, Nosler, Horn, Barnes, traditionally premium ammo guys all now offer budget deer lines to compete with corelokts, power points which is the volume in hunting ammo. This is also the reason Lapua mostly only sells brass for match rounds; several of which do not even come in factory rifles or have factory ammo. It is a very niche market.
Lou
Well, it would be a pointless excercise to argue about this without data. Got any? I dont. You may be right, but what I see in the big picture doesnt jive with what you outlined. There are always niche makers that focus on one part of a market, but that doesnt define the overall market. I’d argue lapua is a niche brand, at least in the US. And, how many people shoot casual local prs, nrl type events that arent registered, let alone have a rifle for such that they just shoot on their own (is that plinking?)? I know around me its a large % of match entrants that are not “registered” with prs, etc. Shall we have a poll for 270 vs 6.5cm to see total # of rounds fired in the past 12 months? Reloaded vs factory ammo rounds fired? Number of factory rifles vs customs? I think no matter how you slice it the volume of numbers is going to be slanted toward factory equipment and “target-optimised” (or at least “target appropriate”) cartridges. Regardless would be interesting to see some actual numbers. I asked chatgpt, here’s the answer I got below. Its not granular enough to be conclusive and I dont know how much overlap is in the numbers, but seems relevant at a minimum.
You said:
What is the relative volume of sales of rifle ammunition and new rifles for hunting versus for target shooting in the US? Not counting three-gun, ar15 style rifles, and 5.56/.223 ammunition.ChatGPT said:
Here’s what I found regarding relative volume of sales of rifle ammunition and new rifles for hunting vs. target shooting in the U.S.—excluding AR‑style rifles and 5.56/.223 ammunition:Economic Impact & Spending
Hunting
- In 2022, the retail sales from hunting (across firearms, ammo, gear) amounted to approximately $45.2 billion Sportsmen's Alliance+1.
- Broader economic impact (including travel, lodging, etc.) was even larger, though I don't have rifle/ammo share separately Sportsmen's Alliance.
Target Shooting
- In the same year, target shooting activities generated about $61.2 billion in retail revenue Sportsmen's Alliance+1.
- Within that, rifles accounted for $16.7 billionin direct firearm‑related spending, second only to handguns in target shooting purchases American Rifleman.
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