.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[BBob]

Does anyone know if setting up the Howa mini with the Oregunsmithing bottom metal, allows greater O.A.L.
And thus heavier heavies… Suppose I could call them….

As stated by others they will allow for longer OAL but you can’t get the bottom metal right now. They’ve been waiting on the mag springs and have no idea when they might get them.

 

[11Justin22]

Depends on the loading. Non MSR fusion is a light .223 load, so it has basically zero recoil. Factory 5.56 77gr TMK is noticeably harder kicking, in my experience. 5.56 77gr TMK loads will push the 77gr bullet to essentially identical velocities as the 62gr bullet in the .223 fusion load.

Interesting, my experience is with an AR with many different loads and I can't tell much of a difference at all. Maybe the platform has someone do do with that. Only bolt .223 I have is not twisted fast enough for the tmk so I have never tried it in that.

 

[FLS]

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

I knew it would kill them, deer arent hard to kill. My curiosity was did more "proven" bullets and caliber work better. Was what i had read and heard most of my life true?
Its not, with similar placement a 300 WSM with a 150 grain ballistic tip didnt kill a whitetail any deader than a 223 with a 64 grain power point. It made a bigger hole, but the deer werent any deader. What really surbrised me were how far deer went after being shot with a 45/70. I figure that buffalo gun would knock one flat. It didnt. It killed them very un spectacularly.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Seems a correlation between spectacular internal destruction, and incapacitating the central nervous system, while the brain dies from lack of oxygen.

 

[taba]

A single [.223] round is capable of severing the upper body from the lower body, or decapitation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624470286598012928

 

[Slsnpsy]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

 

[MidGAHunter]

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

 

[cmahoney]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

Thanks for the insight, I was really confused until you made this post and cleared everything up for me!


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[Reburn]

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

Yea bro he aint responding back. He got his 10 posts and now is on his way to the classifieds. This thread is still the best fudd trap ever.

 

[BradArnett]

Awesome thread, finally made it through this after a month of reading

While I haven't used the 77tmk I have killed a truckload of deer from 20-480yds with the 223/223ai and 22-250/22-250ai using 50vmax, 53tsx, 60vmax, 60partitions, 64pp, 75scirocco, 75amax. I have the most kills with the 62tsx and the 75amaxs. From what I seen over the years the 75amax put deer down quicker than than the tsx ever did for me.

It sure looks like the 77tmk is just more of a good thing.

 

[packgoatguy]

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

You make a fair point... I bet you are right... most naysayers won't have had PERSONAL experience with the 77tmk/.223 combo... Because it DOESN'T EXIST!!... can't buy bullets or factory ammo... so it's kind of hard to recommend a bullet/rifle combo that you can't test out or find ammo for.

It's also lost on some (unless they read this whole thread or have personal experience) that not all .223 bullets are created equal, and some of us would worry that an inexperienced hunter might learn about the .77tmk/.223 combo... think it sounds like a great idea... but then when they realize that they can't buy the 77tmk in any form, they buy the first cheap box of 55gr bullets they find on the shelf... and start flinging lead at Bambi. This might unnecessarily yield some wounded or wasted/unrecoverable animals... when that particular (less savy) hunter might have been nearly as proficient with the (still relatively mild) 6.5cm (or other light recoiling cartridge with readily available hunting ammo...) at their max 200 yard range or whatever.

If the 77tmk/223 combo works for you, and you don't plan to hunt beyond 400/450 yards, then more power to ya... but please be conscious of the reality of the premise of this thread is VERY limiting with a tiny amount of the bullet options available to .223 owners being viable for hunting big game. A hunter starting out might be wise to consider alternatives... at least until something changes to make the tmk available to all who intend to utilize the benefits proffered here-in.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

The lack of 77 TMKs is a significant challenge - but I promise if you look hard and long enough you can find them, either loose or loaded.

 

[packgoatguy]

The lack of 77 TMKs is a significant challenge - but I promise if you look hard and long enough you can find them, either loose or loaded.

Perhaps.

However, perhaps it would be better advice to a novice hunter to pick a bullet/cartridge combo that is more readily available, and then put the time into practice... (that they "save" from not having to spend countless hours scouring the internet for a handful of bullets.) It wouldn't be difficult for an impressionable new hunter to get the impression from this thread, that the 223/tmk combo is the "only" or the "best" option under all circumstances, when in fact other reasonable alternatives exist that don't rely on one's super-shopper capabilities, or sheer luck in happening upon a random box of ammo here or there.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Good things come to those who wait.

Randy

 

[packgoatguy]

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

It also bears pointing out that this combo (the 77grtmk/223) is yardage dependent. "Form" may have taken animals out beyond 450 yards with it, but he has noted a number of times across several different threads that he recommends the tmk/223 combo out to 450 yards.

However, he further clarifies this with his own personal minimum velocity criteria of 1800fps impact velocity

"As long as I achieve 1,800fos at the range I require, I want as short as possible. If it doesn’t hit 1,800fps at range, than I go bigger cartridge"

Which he has further clarified usually correlates to a 22 inch factory length tikka 1/8 twist barrel... using 8208xbr hand loads, getting 2840fps MV.

However, if you do the math, that MV coupled with the BC of the 77gr tmk, at 450 yards is actually 2000fps impact velocity (which implies that when Form makes his recommendations, he is adding in a 200fps minimum velocity buffer). Personally, I feel more comfortable with a 2000fps minimum velocity threshold for ANY bullet I shoot, and some I would argue would need even higher minimum velocities (like some monos, which also has been pointed out a number of times here). Perhaps the tmk CAN perform adequately down to 1800fps, or even less... but anomalies are limited with a higher self imposed minimum.

So... the point here...

If your .223 has a shorter barrel length than the standard proposed here, then velocity will be reduced, and the max reliable range is reduced.

For example, if your 22inch tikka can produce 2840fps with your handloads, then a 16 inch AR barrel might only produce 2600fps with the same load... so if the max range with the 2840fps is 450 yards, then the max range to get the same impact velocity (starting at 2600fps) would be reduced to 325 yards.

However, if you are limited to factory 77tmk ammo (as many new hunters dont reload) you might only get 2750fps with your 22inch barrel, your max range by comparison is reduced to 400 yards... and the 16 inch barrel velocity is likely reduced to around 2550fps, and your max range reduces to 300 yards.

Then consider... perhaps you are like many, and you can't find 77tmk... so you decide to shoot 73eldm hornady match factory ammo. I can personally get about 2725fps out of my 22 inch tikka... which hits my 2000fps impact velocity threshold at about 375 yards at my temp/elevation... out of a 16 inch barrel, this bullet combo drops to around 2500fps... which means a 265 yard max range with a 2000fps minimum impact velocity threshold.

Of course... if you are comfortable imposing a lower minimum velocity threshold... say 1900 or 1800fps, then you can add yardage.

By comparison,

The readily available 147gr match hornady ammo out of a 6.5 creedmoor (with its much higher BC) will give you around 2700fps out of a factory tikka, which gets to 635 yards with a 2000fps minimum impact velocity threshold. If your 16 inch barrel gets 2500fps MV, then it doesn't fall below 2000fps impact velocity until beyond 465 yards.

So, yes... a 77tmk could be a good option for some... within certain yardage and velocity constraints... but other light-recoiling alternatives exist that offer ballistic advantages and extended range by comparison.

Personally, I hunt in open country out west, where an experienced shooter could reasonably expect shot opportunities out to 600 yards (my own self imposed limit) and beyond... and so if I want a shorter barreled rifle to pack around... I'm going to likely reach for one that can lob bullets with a higher BC.

 

[cmahoney]

You guys see these?

HOWA HOWA BARRELED MINI ACTION 223REM BL STANDARD 22" 1/2X28 T/C | Brownells

Howa 1500 Barreled Actions are the perfect platform for a quality precision rifle build, at an affordable cost. Every Howa Barreled Action ...

www.brownells.com

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[packgoatguy]

How does a bullet become “proven” without testing it on game? Personally, I try to kill a handful of coyotes with a bullet before heading after deer. It at least gives an idea of expansion and penetration.


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Not a bad approach IMO. Please post your results. Should be interesting to compare with posts on other forums that claim bullets like the 88eld and 108eld make tiny entrance holes and no exits on coyotes out to 300 yards and under. (Would be Ideal performance if you are hunting "fur" but maybe not ideal if you want exit wounds and blood trails??)

 

[BBob]

You guys see these?

I have one and so do several others around here. Add a Stocky’s carbon second stock and it’s cheap. Someone is selling a factory plastic stock here for $75ish too.

 

[cmahoney]

I have one and so do several others around here. Add a Stocky’s carbon second stock and it’s cheap. Someone is selling a factory plastic stock here for $75ish too.

Have they always been 8 twist barrels?


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