.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[cod0396]

The 62 grain fusion is, though I can't imagine there being much felt recoil difference between the lower grain options and 77gr tmk. I can't tell any difference anyways

Depends on the loading. Non MSR fusion is a light .223 load, so it has basically zero recoil. Factory 5.56 77gr TMK is noticeably harder kicking, in my experience. 5.56 77gr TMK loads will push the 77gr bullet to essentially identical velocities as the 62gr bullet in the .223 fusion load.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Not exactly sure, I’ve shot a bunch of deer on nuisance permits with a lot of different rifles. Guesstimate is 15-20 with the SMKs. They either expand violently or pencil thru. Most worked fine and the deer piled up quickly. The ones that didn’t, the deer went a ways even after being hit in the vitals. I’ve shot 10 times that with 64 grain power points. They worked great. None ever went more than a few yards. Shot a few with 75 ELDMs and they work really well. Lots of damage and deer piled up quick. I shot a coyote with my 16” AR and a 77 smk last week at about 100 yds in the field beside my house. Shot was quartering to and he went down in a heap.

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

 

[beerbucksducks]

How does a bullet become “proven” without testing it on game? Personally, I try to kill a handful of coyotes with a bullet before heading after deer. It at least gives an idea of expansion and penetration.


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[Fartrell Cluggins]

How does a bullet become “proven” without testing it on game? Personally, I try to kill a handful of coyotes with a bullet before heading after deer. It at least gives an idea of expansion and penetration.


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You kinda answered your own question. You did some testing. You did so on an animal that would quickly die, even if the bullet did not perform the way you wanted it to. Based on a good bit of reading, much of it of Form's writing, there are non-animal mediums into which bullets can be fired to get a VERY reliable indication of their on-game performance.

 

[35WhelenAI]

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

I'd like to understand that as well.

 

[BBob]

Does anyone know if setting up the Howa mini with the Oregunsmithing bottom metal, allows greater O.A.L.
And thus heavier heavies… Suppose I could call them….

As stated by others they will allow for longer OAL but you can’t get the bottom metal right now. They’ve been waiting on the mag springs and have no idea when they might get them.

 

[11Justin22]

Depends on the loading. Non MSR fusion is a light .223 load, so it has basically zero recoil. Factory 5.56 77gr TMK is noticeably harder kicking, in my experience. 5.56 77gr TMK loads will push the 77gr bullet to essentially identical velocities as the 62gr bullet in the .223 fusion load.

Interesting, my experience is with an AR with many different loads and I can't tell much of a difference at all. Maybe the platform has someone do do with that. Only bolt .223 I have is not twisted fast enough for the tmk so I have never tried it in that.

 

[FLS]

From an ethical standpoint how do you justify experimenting on live animals when there a so many proven bullets available?

I knew it would kill them, deer arent hard to kill. My curiosity was did more "proven" bullets and caliber work better. Was what i had read and heard most of my life true?
Its not, with similar placement a 300 WSM with a 150 grain ballistic tip didnt kill a whitetail any deader than a 223 with a 64 grain power point. It made a bigger hole, but the deer werent any deader. What really surbrised me were how far deer went after being shot with a 45/70. I figure that buffalo gun would knock one flat. It didnt. It killed them very un spectacularly.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Seems a correlation between spectacular internal destruction, and incapacitating the central nervous system, while the brain dies from lack of oxygen.

 

[taba]

A single [.223] round is capable of severing the upper body from the lower body, or decapitation.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1624470286598012928

 

[Slsnpsy]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

 

[MidGAHunter]

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

 

[cmahoney]

Lethality greatly depends on shot placements. Bears have been taken down with 22 lr. While i dont have any doubt there are people capable of hunting with 223, its definitely not the case for most people. When it comes to ethical kills, more cant hurt but less can.

Thanks for the insight, I was really confused until you made this post and cleared everything up for me!


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[Reburn]

So, after reading 3108 posts on this thread, this is your conclusion?

Yea bro he aint responding back. He got his 10 posts and now is on his way to the classifieds. This thread is still the best fudd trap ever.

 

[BradArnett]

Awesome thread, finally made it through this after a month of reading

While I have only used the 77tmk on 1 deer, I have killed a truckload of deer from 20-480yds with the 223/223ai and 22-250/22-250ai using 50vmax, 53tsx, 60vmax, 60partitions, 64pp, 75scirocco, 75amax. I have the most kills with the 62tsx and the 75amaxs. From what I seen over the years the 75amax put deer down quicker than than the tsx ever did for me.

It sure looks like the 77tmk is just more of a good thing.

 

[packgoatguy]

I was thinking the same thing. The complete and total ignorance in his statement is staggering. A bad shot is a bad shot. A gut shot with a 300 WM isn't going to turn out much (if any) different than a gut shot with a .223 and 77 TMKs. Having seen first hand (and I'd bet anything that none of the naysayers have any experience with the 77 TMK) the devastation of the .223/77TMK combo, I would use it on any game in North America as well.

You make a fair point... I bet you are right... most naysayers won't have had PERSONAL experience with the 77tmk/.223 combo... Because it DOESN'T EXIST!!... can't buy bullets or factory ammo... so it's kind of hard to recommend a bullet/rifle combo that you can't test out or find ammo for.

It's also lost on some (unless they read this whole thread or have personal experience) that not all .223 bullets are created equal, and some of us would worry that an inexperienced hunter might learn about the .77tmk/.223 combo... think it sounds like a great idea... but then when they realize that they can't buy the 77tmk in any form, they buy the first cheap box of 55gr bullets they find on the shelf... and start flinging lead at Bambi. This might unnecessarily yield some wounded or wasted/unrecoverable animals... when that particular (less savy) hunter might have been nearly as proficient with the (still relatively mild) 6.5cm (or other light recoiling cartridge with readily available hunting ammo...) at their max 200 yard range or whatever.

If the 77tmk/223 combo works for you, and you don't plan to hunt beyond 400/450 yards, then more power to ya... but please be conscious of the reality of the premise of this thread is VERY limiting with a tiny amount of the bullet options available to .223 owners being viable for hunting big game. A hunter starting out might be wise to consider alternatives... at least until something changes to make the tmk available to all who intend to utilize the benefits proffered here-in.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

The lack of 77 TMKs is a significant challenge - but I promise if you look hard and long enough you can find them, either loose or loaded.

 

[packgoatguy]

The lack of 77 TMKs is a significant challenge - but I promise if you look hard and long enough you can find them, either loose or loaded.

Perhaps.

However, perhaps it would be better advice to a novice hunter to pick a bullet/cartridge combo that is more readily available, and then put the time into practice... (that they "save" from not having to spend countless hours scouring the internet for a handful of bullets.) It wouldn't be difficult for an impressionable new hunter to get the impression from this thread, that the 223/tmk combo is the "only" or the "best" option under all circumstances, when in fact other reasonable alternatives exist that don't rely on one's super-shopper capabilities, or sheer luck in happening upon a random box of ammo here or there.

 

[mtnwrunner]

Good things come to those who wait.

Randy