.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

packgoatguy said:
See... this is what I'm sayin... what was "incorrect" about his post? Are you arguing that he hasn't killed the number of animals he says says he has? Or do you just disagree with HIS opinion (based on what sounds like a not insignificant amount of experience) about the reasonable limitations he perceives in the 223? You also imply that he didn't use the tmk... maybe he did?? Do you know this guy and know otherwise? Maybe he used 62gr gold dots, or 73 eldm, or 75 eldm, or any other bullets regarded in this thread as being "almost" as good as the tmk... you don't know what he used...

That said... your anecdotal evidence you provided from your personal experience was enlightening and valuable to the discussion. Thank you for your valid and relevant contribution.
Click to expand...

"A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection."

This is what is incorrect. His whole post/argument/view is based on that and as such is invalid because IT IS NOT TRUE. Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge. A smaller caliber with a rapidly expanding bullet will exhibit larger wounds than a larger caliber with mono bullets. I used the .223 TMK because that is what this thread is about but I have other examples of .243/6.5 creed exhibiting more damage than 30/06/300WM. There's a video on YouTube where a guy compares ballistic gelatin from a .50bmg to a 6creed. 6 creed had a significantly larger wound. How you ask....... Because he used a rapidly expanding bullet in the creed and a fmj in the bmg.......Bullets matter more than head stamps.
 
packgoatguy said:
Perhaps you could expound on that a bit... cause it sounds like you are implying that you'd pick the 223rem if you want to hit stuff... and anyone who doesn't use a 223... isn't going to hit stuff??

I haven't taken the hundreds and hundreds of big game animals that Form says he has... but between myself and my kids, wife, nieces, nephews, and other family members or friends who use my rifles to hunt... we are well over 60 deer, elk, or antelope in the last 7 years or so. Mostly with young, inexperienced hunters... and we have lost only 3 animals that were shot at... two due to scope issues, (no animals died that we didnt recover) one clean miss with a kid rushing the shot, one of the scope issue shots was also a clean miss, and the 3rd, the bullet grazed the animal (non mortal wound). Calibers including 243win, 6.5cm, 7mm08, 308win, 270win, 300wm, 28-nosler. Most were with the 6.5cm and 300wm. All but a couple were one shot kills, and the few that took a second shot were lethal, but a follow up shot seemed wise at the time. Many shots in the 400-550 range. Most in the 300-400 range, and some in the sub 300 yards category. Almost all of our hunting is done on foot, at least 2-3 miles from the truck, mostly with the 2000ft or more in elevation gain... so not easy conditions.

So... I'd say we have a pretty high "hit rate" with calibers other than the 223rem.

That said... I ensure every kid is fully supported every time, they don't take running shots, we start with accurate loads, scopes are dialed to particular ranges, and they don't take long shots under extreme conditions (ie a heavy crosswind, etc).
Click to expand...
In all sincerity, it’s about hit rates and wound channels.

Don’t over complicate this.

Teach your kids to be rifleman. Sincerely.
 
PNWGATOR said:
In all sincerity, it’s about hit rates and wound channels.

Don’t over complicate this.

Teach your kids to be rifleman. Sincerely.
Click to expand...
This^^^^^. I've shot more rounds through my .223 in the last month in meaningful practice than I put through my .30-06 in the last 6 months. The improvement in my shooting has been eye opening and I'm only getting started. Quit bickering and go shooting instead☺
 
mtnwrunner said:
As far as components go......it ain't like it was. I'm really not sure it ever will be again
That being said, within the last month or so, I've been able to find loaded 77 tmk, powder and bullets and primers. You just have to work at it a wee bit.
Now, a left handed 223 superlite is another story.

Randy
Click to expand...
Left handed t3x stainless in 6.5cm on a utah classifieds forum. I can pm you the link if you like. Maybe it's worth rebarreling if you can't find the 223 you want.
 
11Justin22 said:
"A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection."

This is what is incorrect. His whole post/argument/view is based on that and as such is invalid because IT IS NOT TRUE. Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge. A smaller caliber with a rapidly expanding bullet will exhibit larger wounds than a larger caliber with mono bullets. I used the .223 TMK because that is what this thread is about but I have other examples of .243/6.5 creed exhibiting more damage than 30/06/300WM. There's a video on YouTube where a guy compares ballistic gelatin from a .50bmg to a 6creed. 6 creed had a significantly larger wound. How you ask....... Because he used a rapidly expanding bullet in the creed and a fmj in the bmg.......Bullets matter more than head stamps.
Click to expand...
I agree whole heartedly with your premise... just look at my other posts... yes, bullet construction matters more than headstamps...

however all I was getting at is that this other guys post did not say he was comparing small caliber expanding bullets to larger caliber monos... maybe that is exactly what he WAS observing... as you put it "Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge."
 
packgoatguy said:
Gunsmith I talked to last week about this subject, said it's no problem modifying those bolt faces. He was referring to going up in size, not down... so I don't know if there is an issue there.
Click to expand...
He is correct that enlarging a bolt face will work but going down is not possible.
One of these days, one will pop up.

Randy
 
11Justin22 said:
"A mild cartridge like a .243 is night and days difference from a .223, regardless of bullet selection."

This is what is incorrect. His whole post/argument/view is based on that and as such is invalid because IT IS NOT TRUE. Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge. A smaller caliber with a rapidly expanding bullet will exhibit larger wounds than a larger caliber with mono bullets. I used the .223 TMK because that is what this thread is about but I have other examples of .243/6.5 creed exhibiting more damage than 30/06/300WM. There's a video on YouTube where a guy compares ballistic gelatin from a .50bmg to a 6creed. 6 creed had a significantly larger wound. How you ask....... Because he used a rapidly expanding bullet in the creed and a fmj in the bmg.......Bullets matter more than head stamps.
Click to expand...

Good point, and if the handful of guys at this late stage want pot stir with dismissive opinion without reading or facts they would have read comments from members who have killed with 300 wm and tmk at mid ranges and their details…
 
Moose83 said:
This^^^^^. I've shot more rounds through my .223 in the last month in meaningful practice than I put through my .30-06 in the last 6 months. The improvement in my shooting has been eye opening and I'm only getting started. Quit bickering and go shooting instead☺
Click to expand...
Yeah, I had to take a break from this thread for a bit this evening... I wanted to see what reading my labradar would give me at 10 degrees F with factory 73elds... 2.3mils elevation adjustment on the scope was on the money! Put three rounds into a 3 inch disc at my 400 yard target behind my house. 2695, 2705, 2710fps with the factory 1/8 t3 barrel. I dare those coyotes to come by again tomorrow!
 
packgoatguy said:
Yeah, I had to take a break from this thread for a bit this evening... I wanted to see what reading my labradar would give me at 10 degrees F with factory 73elds... 2.3mils elevation adjustment on the scope was on the money! Put three rounds into a 3 inch disc at my 400 yard target behind my house. 2695, 2705, 2710fps with the factory 1/8 t3 barrel. I dare those coyotes to come by again tomorrow!
Click to expand...
Lol. Everything is always better after some trigger time.... I wish I could shoot out my back door!
 
packgoatguy said:
I agree whole heartedly with your premise... just look at my other posts... yes, bullet construction matters more than headstamps...

however all I was getting at is that this other guys post did not say he was comparing small caliber expanding bullets to larger caliber monos... maybe that is exactly what he WAS observing... as you put it "Bullets of the same make such as the TMK for example will exhibit more damage to a varying degree as you move up in cartridge."
Click to expand...
Do you think you'd be able to tell the difference in a heart hit with a 77 grain 223 TMK and a 130 grain 6.5 TMK at the same velocity?
 
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