.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Ucsdryder]

I think this guy is just trying to fire people up. There’s a reason you don’t see 6 ARC’s as backup rifles in Alaska, and there’s a reason no guide that has his life on the line, would ever let you. That spec ed can think whatever he wants, cartridge and calibers make a difference.

Nobody is saying they don’t make a difference, well maybe besides John. What people argue is the benefits of small cartridges outweigh the benefits of large cartridges, which is why you can never declare a true winner.

 

[2001precision]

Nobody is saying they don’t make a difference, well maybe besides John. What people argue is the benefits of small cartridges outweigh the benefits of large cartridges, which is why you can never declare a true winner.

Right! Exactly! John is on the special side for sure. By the way, I shoot a 6.5 creed and love it. Killed animals with 147 ELD-M in a creedmoor, but have also killed animals with 300 grainers out of Lapua. Different tools, for different jobs. The only winner is the man who owns all of them, so he can pick whatever he wants.

 

[2001precision]

No surprise, agree completely. Killing better is a relative term...a dead critter is a dead critter...prefer not to find out if a smaller bullet will kill or fail on larger game. Shoot tons of smaller sized big game (Coues, antelope, deer sized) with 115s though 140s - but those bullets don't fit my personal description of small bullets on larger game. All things the same, bigger is better.

I agree! I threw it in quotes, because you’re exactly right. Dead is dead. You can’t kill “better” if they both died. I’ve used 6mm and 338, they all work good. Special John doesn’t think so, but there is definitely a difference.

 

[KHntr]

Maybe you are right, maybe not, but some pretty broad assumptions when you say "all of us"

I like small bullets - for certain big game animals and have made it clear that I shoot a ton of them - deer sized and smaller. I have witnessed small bullet failure on game but have not had one fail myself. My thing is if I can gun up and create more of everything, why not.

Help me understand why preferring bigger is so hard to accept?

Easy to post pics of smaller bullets working on game, they are dead. The better question to me is admitting one failed and the animal got away - pretty tough to show a pic of that and I rarely see folks proudly sharing that point.

Nobody cares what you shoot your animals with. Seriously. Use whatever makes you giggle.

The problem comes in when you state stuff like “I think minimum cartridges should be mandated by the government because I feel they don’t work very well”.

Thats where you are ruffling feathers.

 

[KHntr]

I think this guy is just trying to fire people up. There’s a reason you don’t see 6 ARC’s as backup rifles in Alaska, and there’s a reason no guide that has his life on the line, would ever let you. That spec ed can think whatever he wants, cartridge and calibers make a difference.

Aren’t Alaska State Troopers now carrying AR15’s instead of 12 gauges when they go clean up problems?

Legitimate question, I think I read that somewhere, and I’m Canadian so have zero exposure to Troopers.

 

[2001precision]

Aren’t Alaska State Troopers now carrying AR15’s instead of 12 gauges when they go clean up problems?

Legitimate question, I think I read that somewhere, and I’m Canadian so have zero exposure to Troopers.

I do not care. Go look at a “cartridge selection for Alaska” thread, and tell me what the guides say. Don’t take it from me, just go look.

 

[atmat]

Good question - I do have different opinions and many of them are very valid. Many of you disagree, there are many who agree. Thought that was the purpose of discussions.

My issue comes when someone goes out their way to call me ignorant for having an opinion on a public forum. Wouldn't you argue, as you are now, if someone called you ignorant?

I wont get personal anymore - but I will continue to share my opinion, my experiences and what I believe are facts - whether the mainstream thinks they are ok with them or not, isn't the concern.

Why are you here?

Not sure why you’re quoting me and responding multiple times but okay.

No one is saying you shouldn’t have opinions. It’s okay to say, “I like big calibers because I do.” It’s when you present statements as facts that are ignorant/wrong in their accuracy that you get called out.

I’m here to have discussions not based on my emotional biases.

 

[WTFJohn]

Bullets and broadheads kill differently. Should we start comparing bullets and cars?

I hit a mule deer at 20 mph with a 7,000 lb truck. It bounced off the bumper, jumped a fence and ran off. If you don't let the blood out somewhere or break something important, turns out they don't die quickly and are hard/impossible to track. Not that much different than an arrow or bullet.

Hey buddy, I read the first 10 pages with about 2 real pics of bullet failures. If that. We’re on page 53 or 54 now. You’d better have posted a bullet failure, with pictures, or you’d better get off the thread yourself. You know what’s funny? I just got off a thread of cartridge selection in Alaska, and every single guide up there won’t let you shoot anything that’s not significant. 338 minimum usually. I didn’t find any 22 cal or 6.5 Creedmoor lovers over there… funny. By the way, I simply dropped my opinion. Take your bow kills to another thread.

You take as long as you want to find posts from me saying to hunt with a .223, it's not legal on big game in my state. I've killed plenty of whitetail with them, including with 55 gr fmj. I don't hunt Alaska, and have not given advice on hunting Alaska. I do hunt with a .45-70 that is from Alaska.

I think this guy is just trying to fire people up. There’s a reason you don’t see 6 ARC’s as backup rifles in Alaska, and there’s a reason no guide that has his life on the line, would ever let you. That spec ed can think whatever he wants, cartridge and calibers make a difference.

There is no shortage of threads with all the arguments going on in here that are (or were) better suited for them. I still hunt and shoot with large calibers, and never said people shouldn't. Thanks for the personal insults as well. Guess I'll go elk hunting today on my ranch and sulk about it.

Nobody is saying they don’t make a difference, well maybe besides John. What people argue is the benefits of small cartridges outweigh the benefits of large cartridges, which is why you can never declare a true winner.

Dead is dead. What is more dead? I've seen DRT with small and large calibers, and seen animals run uphill 80-200 yds with the same.

I've killed elk, bears, deer, antelope, and moose with small and large calibers. Still do. I have asked for clarification when guys have made statements like "I wouldn't shoot x caliber here or there" or "I wouldn't take y shot angle with that caliber", because maybe they have lots of experience and/or anecdotal evidence to back it up. Lo and behold, almost no one actually has that. Instead, they jump to personal insults, change the parameters of the initial statement, or are talking about needing 30" + of penetration.

 

[eric1115]

Seriously my dudes, there are approximately 10,000 threads on this site that are for asserting that small diameter bullets do or don't work well. Please take your argument there. This thread (was supposed to be) for demonstrating that they don't (either through photos or detailed description of actual experience).

@2001precision, I see you're relatively new here (less than a year). Please back off the personal insults, special ed comments, etc. you'll be much better received if you handle interactions here like real life conversations (making the assumption that like me you might engage in ball busting with friends, but understand that in effect calling a stranger a retard in the middle of a disagreement is a good way to get punched in the face).

 

[Article 4]

Nobody cares what you shoot your animals with. Seriously. Use whatever makes you giggle.

The problem comes in when you state stuff like “I think minimum cartridges should be mandated by the government because I feel they don’t work very well”.

Thats where you are ruffling feathers.

Ditto - I haver never said someone was unethical or blatantly wrong for what they shoot - I just think big bullets work better and have shared why. I am also entitled to think that agencies should - just like they do with archery equipment and muzzle loaders.

So some feathers got ruffled. Is the expectation from you and others that I am supposed to have the exact same opinion as you and others on every subject? Sad, if so.

And its not about whether the evidence meets someones definition is acceptable to them. I find it comical that there are personalities here that believe they get to police it on their own authority.

 

[Article 4]

Not sure why you’re quoting me and responding multiple times but okay.

No one is saying you shouldn’t have opinions. It’s okay to say, “I like big calibers because I do.” It’s when you present statements as facts that are ignorant/wrong in their accuracy that you get called out.

I’m here to have discussions not based on my emotional biases.

Wrong because they say its wrong? Inaccurate cause "they" say its inaccurate?

We can agree to disagree.

Look forward to hearing why you are here if you care to answer. If not, cheers!

 

[2001precision]

Seriously my dudes, there are approximately 10,000 threads on this site that are for asserting that small diameter bullets do or don't work well. Please take your argument there. This thread (was supposed to be) for demonstrating that they don't (either through photos or detailed description of actual experience).

@2001precision, I see you're relatively new here (less than a year). Please back off the personal insults, special ed comments, etc. you'll be much better received if you handle interactions here like real life conversations (making the assumption that like me you might engage in ball busting with friends, but understand that in effect calling a stranger a retard in the middle of a disagreement is a good way to get punched in the face).

Yeah I tried just leaving a respectful comment with another user that I agreed with. 6mm 108gr bullets, won’t do as much damage as a 338 cal 300gr bullet. “Buddy” John told me to lay off the large caliber nonsense… I promise I’d be using bigger words, if we were in person.

 

[WTFJohn]

Yeah I tried just leaving a respectful comment with another user that I agreed with. 6mm 108gr bullets, won’t do as much damage as a 338 cal 300gr bullet. “Buddy” John told me to lay off the large caliber nonsense… I promise I’d be using bigger words, if we were in person.

Oh boy, your ego is that hurt? Grow up Count Chocula.

 

[atmat]

Wrong because they say its wrong? Inaccurate cause "they" say its inaccurate?

Lol wrong because you’re wrong, not because “they” (whoever that is intended to be) say you are.

Look forward to hearing why you are here if you care to answer. If not, cheers!

I literally answered in my last post (see again below for quick reference). No disrespect, but do you actually read before responding? I’m assuming you’re just trolling now.

I’m here to have discussions not based on my emotional biases.

 

[KHntr]

I do not care. Go look at a “cartridge selection for Alaska” thread, and tell me what the guides say. Don’t take it from me, just go look.

I give zero f#%ks what a guide says about cartridge selection. I know a BUNCH of guides, my neighbors are outfitters. Some of my closest buddies have been/are guides. Guides are more dialed in to finding animals and getting bumble-footed flatlanders onto them than they are the bullets and cartridges that are available.
Dangerous country guides aren’t spending time reading forums or ballistic charts after they cape a sheep or tend the horses during the season, and the majority of them probably aren’t spending a ton of money that they don’t have in the off season on new rifles and bullet combinations.
Of the majority of guides I know personally, not many of them are packing the highest quality gear “cheaper to let the hunter show up with a new Swaro or Leica, and if you do a good job that might be your tip. If you are carrying a set of NL Pures, the hunter won’t be tipping you his EL’s that you can trip for extra cash as soon as you hit town”. Literal conversation I’ve had.

The rifle is the EASIEST part of the hunters entire experience for a guide - “338 win mag. Or 300 win mag.”
Cartridge choice done for hunter. Check.
Now, where are those horses and which ones need replaced before the hunter gets here?

See the trend here?

 

[2001precision]

Oh boy, your ego is that hurt? Grow up Count Chocula.

You gave me the worlds worst example of an arrow killing elk… then told me to “quit shitting up the thread with large caliber nonsense”. Because I’ve looked over plenty of animals shot with calibers from 6mm-338, and I’ve observed more damage with the larger calibers. Special was honestly the nicest word I could possibly think of, for something like yourself.

 

[2001precision]

I give zero f#%ks what a guide says about cartridge selection. I know a BUNCH of guides, my neighbors are outfitters. Some of my closest buddies have been/are guides. Guides are more dialed in to finding animals and getting bumble-footed flatlanders onto them than they are the bullets and cartridges that are available.
Dangerous country guides aren’t spending time reading forums or ballistic charts after they cape a sheep or tend the horses during the season, and the majority of them probably aren’t spending a ton of money that they don’t have in the off season on new rifles and bullet combinations.
Of the majority of guides I know personally, not many of them are packing the highest quality gear “cheaper to let the hunter show up with a new Swaro or Leica, and if you do a good job that might be your tip. If you are carrying a set of NL Pures, the hunter won’t be tipping you his EL’s that you can trip for extra cash as soon as you hit town”. Literal conversation I’ve had.

The rifle is the EASIEST part of the hunters entire experience for a guide - “338 win mag. Or 300 win mag.”
Cartridge choice done for hunter. Check.
Now, where are those horses and which ones need replaced before the hunter gets here?

See the trend here?

Then why would I give a f*#% about what the troopers use? See a trend here?

 

[2001precision]

Seriously my dudes, there are approximately 10,000 threads on this site that are for asserting that small diameter bullets do or don't work well. Please take your argument there. This thread (was supposed to be) for demonstrating that they don't (either through photos or detailed description of actual experience).

@2001precision, I see you're relatively new here (less than a year). Please back off the personal insults, special ed comments, etc. you'll be much better received if you handle interactions here like real life conversations (making the assumption that like me you might engage in ball busting with friends, but understand that in effect calling a stranger a retard in the middle of a disagreement is a good way to get punched in the face).

Calling my statement “shitting up the thread with large caliber nonsense” was a good way to get punched in the nose, if I do say so myself.

 

[WTFJohn]

You gave me the worlds worst example of an arrow killing elk… then told me to “quit shitting up the thread with large caliber nonsense”. Because I’ve looked over plenty of animals shot with calibers from 6mm-338, and I’ve observed more damage with the larger calibers. Special was honestly the nicest word I could possibly think of, for something like yourself.

I have 10 years of professional guiding experience on whitetails. I have guided elk hunts in the west. I regularly take friends and family hunting. I shoot thousands of rounds of ammo a year. Notice I didn't bring any of that into a small caliber bullet failure thread? No wonder Form stays more anonymous, you can't support your own statements so you have to bring personal insults and threats to the table.

Calling my statement “shitting up the thread with large caliber nonsense” was a good way to get punched in the nose, if I do say so myself.

Ok. Good luck going forward in life.

 

[KHntr]

Then why would I give a f*#% about what the troopers use? See a trend here?

Just asking about a possible shift in policy from the “tried and true 12 gauge and slugs” for the guys that are actually dealing with DLP situations.