.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[deerhunter628]

Try the googles.

Im not sure the googles will be able to tell me what you ment but i will check. That will need to be tomorrow. We have been put on a time out.

 

[mt100gr.]

The most surefire way for no information, data, or anything to be added to the knowledge base is making it so damn annoying to even try to learn it, that people just give up and that is what is being achieved here.

Honestly, at this point, its not even worth opening any thread that has anything to do with calibers.

What about threads that have to do with cartridges?

 

[CorbLand]

Im not sure the googles will be able to tell me what you ment but i will check. That will need to be tomorrow. We have been put on a time out.

I would explain it to you but your ability to manufacture ignorance to hide behind is absolutely remarkable and I, for one, would hate to take that ability from you.

But that is just an opinion and you could just scroll on past.

 

[fngTony]

Time to move on from the bickering, semantics and snarky nonsense.

 

[Drenalin]

First 8 months of 2025 gonna be long as shit

 

[77TMK]

Nah, crop season brings on culling and hog management. I shoot like 2 deer in regular season but 20+ in the summer.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Nah, crop season brings on culling and hog management. I shoot like 2 deer in regular season but 20+ in the summer.

Given your username I don't forsee you contributing much to this thread.

Lol.

 

[77TMK]

Given your username I don't forsee you contributing much to this thread.

Lol.

I'll just force another really long shot and see if the 77 TMK can bounce of a whitetail. I've read it can happen. The one at 435 this year wasn't happy.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I'll just force another really long shot and see if the 77 TMK can bounce of a whitetail. I've read it can happen. The one at 435 this year wasn't happy.

Just yell "THIS. IS. THE SLIDE!!" before shot break. Probably why all these rookies are having issues with their small cals anyway

 

[WhatToHunt]

Too much?

 

[HandgunHTR]

Yes, but when sombody says the same stuff about a big caliber they are told that is their opinion and the small caliber group says theirs is fact. That is my point. Im not on the big caliber side or small caliber side.

That is because in almost all the cases, there is no accompanying evidence (i.e necropsy photos, etc). Another thing to consider is that in almost all cases, if you go back and read the posts, nobody is challenging the fact that larger caliber frangible bullets perform well. We all know that due to years and years of experience.

The problem comes in when people try to "convince" the group that their mono-metal, or bonded bullet perform the same, or better, than the frangible bullets. Or, they come in to tell their "one time, at hunting camp, I was using a .223 and XXX happened, so I will never use them again." Also, with no supporting evidence.
I believe you are conflating the posts that are challenging the anecdotes of supposed failures of small diameter bullets with no supporting evidence and those challenging the performance of larger caliber bullets (which honestly doesn't happen often).

 

[HandgunHTR]

Ok, since I did end up jumping in and cluttered up the thread with "non-failure" information, I will actually add a data point.

1999, middle SC. I was hunting a corn field with a 7RM using Winchester Supreme ammo that had the old 140 grain Silvertip (coated NBT) bullets. Had a 2.5 year old buck come out right under my stand. The shot entered right between the shoulder blades at 3 yards. Of course it stoned him.

Upon skinning, when I pulled the skin down past the wound, the deer literally fell in half. The only thing holding it together was the flesh between some of the ribs. There was stomach contents all throughout the cavity. The upper shoulders and 2/3s of the backstraps were destroyed.

This could be classified as a hunter failure, rather than a bullet failure, but I will definitely say that a 140 grain NBT out of a 7RM at 3 yards is going to be pretty destructive.

I was a lot younger in those days, so instead of moving down in cartridge size, I just switched over to using the Remington ammo loaded with 150 grain Swift Siroccos.

 

[deerhunter628]

Ok, since I did end up jumping in and cluttered up the thread with "non-failure" information, I will actually add a data point.

1999, middle SC. I was hunting a corn field with a 7RM using Winchester Supreme ammo that had the old 140 grain Silvertip (coated NBT) bullets. Had a 2.5 year old buck come out right under my stand. The shot entered right between the shoulder blades at 3 yards. Of course it stoned him.

Upon skinning, when I pulled the skin down past the wound, the deer literally fell in half. The only thing holding it together was the flesh between some of the ribs. There was stomach contents all throughout the cavity. The upper shoulders and 2/3s of the backstraps were destroyed.

This could be classified as a hunter failure, rather than a bullet failure, but I will definitely say that a 140 grain NBT out of a 7RM at 3 yards is going to be pretty destructive.

I was a lot younger in those days, so instead of moving down in cartridge size, I just switched over to using the Remington ammo loaded with 150 grain Swift Siroccos.

How did that bullet fail?

 

[JGRaider]

3 yds at magnum velocities......wonder what is expected? This was at 90 yds with a high velocity 139 SST from a 7mag which is bad enough.

 

[HandgunHTR]

How did that bullet fail?

By the definition of quite a few people on this Forum, too much destruction of meat is a bullet failure.

As I clearly stated in my post, some would consider this a hunter failure rather than a bullet failure.

 

[ElPollo]

3 yds at magnum velocities......wonder what is expected? This was at 90 yds with a high velocity 139 SST from a 7mag which is bad enough. View attachment 816070

Is it a failure if you choose a bullet designed to run well at lower velocities and stick it in a 7 mag for short range shots? I would say that bullet performed as it was designed, but was not used as it was designed to be. I think an SST is a great big game bullet in a 300 Savage or a 308. I have a buddy who uses them in a Rem 81 and a Savage 99. In a 7 mag, it’s equivalent to a v-max or other varmint bullets designed to reduce prairie dogs to clouds of pink mist. It’s sorta like that guy PNWGator might have been on to something when he said “bullets mean more than head stamps”.

I know you aren’t a an inexperienced shooter, and I am not suggesting you are. I think bullet construction and performance is one of the things that is really difficult for newbies to get. They tend to rely on what the industry tells them, which is often wrong. It’s also why state game and fish agencies have to fall back on regulating minimum legal weapons for hunting with inappropriate variables like caliber size and energy. It’s just too complex to regulate based on bullet construction and velocity.

I had a discussion with my brother-in -law last week about this. He was surprised that I was using smaller calibers in the west that aren’t even legal in his state. He shoots 15 or so little bitty GA deer a year with a 30/06 and CoreLokt bullets. I told him that was a super effective combo, and the only reason I could use a 223 was that I specifically chose bullets that maximized wound channel size and depth. Doing so results in a really effective combo that is cheap, easy and fun to shoot for anyone, including his daughter. But if you don’t know much about bullet construction and you are good with more recoil, his ‘06 with green box CoreLokt ammo from the gas station is an easy button.

 

[JGRaider]

Can't disagree with any of that ElPollo. Good post.

 

[HandgunHTR]

From another thread here.

Presented without comment.

Kill pictures from cartridges above 6.5 Creed???

Rifle 308 Baer 180gn Accubond 2960 fps MV Photos from a hunt in the Kalahari region of Namibia. A lot of dead animal photos, but no necropsies. At the time of this hunt, I judged bullet performance on how the animal reacted to the shot. Was not so concerned with what the internal damage looked...

rokslide.com

 

[FredH]

So this forum is enough evidence to prove a hypothisis. That is a new one. I dont think anybody would say “hey it must be true because some people on a forum said so and they have some pictures.” Im sure that does not make sense to you. Most of the people saying that on this forum were saying the opposite not too long ago on this forum.

Actually I don't see anybody saying that under the right circumstances the 223 with the 77gr. TMK won't kill deer. What I see are generally somewhat narrow wound channels through lungs and destroyed hearts. In other words shot placement that would kill any deer by many different cartridges. What I also see are people trying to say that that combination is equal to or better than what a 270 can do. I disagree with the latter.

 

[OneGunTex]

Actually I don't see anybody saying that under the right circumstances the 223 with the 77gr. TMK won't kill deer. What I see are generally somewhat narrow wound channels through lungs and destroyed hearts. In other words shot placement that would kill any deer by many different cartridges. What I also see are people trying to say that that combination is equal to or better than what a 270 can do. I disagree with the latter.

Ooh ooh ooh!! Here's your chance to actually contribute to this thread!!

Go find a picture that you have seen on this site of a "generally somewhat narrow wound channel through lungs" and post it here as an example of bullet failure! Like this thread is meant for! And then you can argue that a 270 would have made a bigger one!

Provide. Evidence. Of. A. Failure.