.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[thinhorn_AK]

I’ve developed a trick that gets an animal to turn - I talk about the technique over in the “Accubond Failures” thread. *chuckle*

lol @ accubond failures.

 

[WTFJohn]

I mostly agree with you so I don't mean this in a smart-ass way, but if you'd actually like to see this done for the sake of real data contribution, I'll do it.

@35WhelenAI reached out and we are working on finding a time in the next few months to shoot together. Still have some elk & lions to chase this season, but once the snow stops getting deeper we'll be getting out there. I'm going to try to get 2 other Roksliders there as well that I shoot & hunt with regularly.

Thanks for the offer though, if you can find a few members up there and shoot like-rifles in different calibers please post your results.

 

[Axlrod]

@35WhelenAI reached out and we are working on finding a time in the next few months to shoot together. Still have some elk & lions to chase this season, but once the snow stops getting deeper we'll be getting out there. I'm going to try to get 2 other Roksliders there as well that I shoot & hunt with regularly.

Thanks for the offer though, if you can find a few members up there and shoot like-rifles in different calibers please post your results.

I can loan you my 8# 416 Rigby for this "shoot". You won't need more than 1 round per person though!

 

[gabenzeke]

The more I read of this debate the more I feel as though this mythical 'insurance' of large calibers is just a euphemism for I don't ever turn down a shot regardless of angle or likelihood of a positive outcome.

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[FredH]

I’m so afraid of a 7 mag I have to wait until two bulls stand next to each other so when a gigantic flinch causes a mis on one bull it will hit the other.

Even though playing Slug Bug with a grade school girl puts more pressure on a shoulder than a belted mag, shooting it makes my tummy hurt and I throw up so there’s no chance for a second shot.

You can always tell which 270 shooter spars at a MMA gym - that tiny pop to the shoulder makes them try to tap out every time.

Your stepping on some toes. They will get all furred up soon. Tampons breaking strings, stuff like that.

 

[35WhelenAI]

The more I read of this debate the more I feel as though this mythical 'insurance' of large calibers is just a euphemism for I don't ever turn down a shot regardless of angle or likelihood of a positive outcome.

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If experience is a euphemism, every larger caliber I've had has been able to exit or get caught after going through 4 ft of elk on hard angle shots, now that we're talking angles, and I don't need to turn down those shots for a positive outcome. That's maximizing opportunity, there's nothing wrong with that but it seems there's a veiled reference to that in your post. That's speaking from experience if you didn't catch that.

 

[FredH]

If experience is a euphemism, every larger caliber I've had has been able to exit or get caught after going through 4 ft of elk on hard angle shots, now that we're talking angles, and I don't need to turn down those shots for a positive outcome. That's maximizing opportunity, there's nothing wrong with that but it seems there's a veiled reference to that in your post. That's speaking from experience if you didn't catch that.

In my opinion there are certainly conditions where a .358 250 grain Nosler Partition started off at 2500 fps would be far more suited than a 77 gr. .224 bullet started at 2600 fps. Having hunted elk in Timber in Wyoming and in western Washington there is zero chance I would choose a 223 with any bullet. Even deer in east Texas national forests a 223 would only be good for less than half the shot possibilities.

 

[35WhelenAI]

In my opinion there are certainly conditions where a .358 250 grain Nosler Partition started off at 2500 fps would be far more suited than a 77 gr. .224 bullet started at 2600 fps. Having hunted elk in Timber in Wyoming and in western Washington there is zero chance I would choose a 223 with any bullet. Even deer in east Texas national forests a 223 would only be good for less than half the shot possibilities.

I'm hesitant to say or talk about shot opportunities. The crew will show up and say there's nothing they wouldn't do with the .223 and show a thousand pictures of blown up shoulders. Thank you for saying it so I can watch them quote your post...

 

[FredH]

I'm hesitant to say or talk about shot opportunities. The crew will show up and say there's nothing they wouldn't do with the .223 and show a thousand pictures of blown up shoulders. Thank you for saying it so I can watch them quote your post...

Yep. I see using the lighter rifles in more open country but in thick blackberry and salmonberry tangles, Mesquite thorn filled areas I want a bullet that will crush any bones on both sides and go out the other side. I have yet to kill an animal with my Whelen that didn't start leaking blood pretty fast. The 250 gr. round noses are awesome.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm hesitant to say or talk about shot opportunities. The crew will show up and say there's nothing they wouldn't do with the .223 and show a thousand pictures of blown up shoulders. Thank you for saying it so I can watch them quote your post...

So if they’ll post a thousand pictures showing angles doesn’t matter; when are you going to stop using “angles” as some advantage?

 

[35WhelenAI]

I said there would be a thousand pictures of blown up shoulders. Here's the first one.

A 77 TMK with a .219 SD that comes apart very rapidly on a broadside shot can compete on penetration or less meat destruction from "angles" with a bullet of the same sectional density that maintains its weight (same weight or heavier weight) on hard "angle" shots on an elk? No.

Is there a difference in shots you would take with the two different bullets described above?

 

[Formidilosus]

Is there a difference in shots you would take with the two different bullets described above?

You asked me this at least twice before. No, there are no shots I would take with a 35 Whelen and a Barnes that I wouldn’t take with any of the cartridges and bullets that I use on NA big game- quite the opposite. There are shots I will take with those smaller cartridges and certain projectiles I would not take with a 35 Whelen and Barns.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Fair enough, cheers!

 

[RockAndSage]

You asked me this at least twice before. No, there are no shots I would take with a 35 Whelen and a Barnes that I wouldn’t take with any of the cartridges and bullets that I use on NA big game- quite the opposite. There are shots I will take with those smaller cartridges and certain projectiles I would not take with a 35 Whelen and Barns.

Would you mind sharing what kind of shots those would be? Ones you would take with a .22 CF, that you wouldn't take with a .35 Whelen?

 

[Shraggs]

Would you mind sharing what kind of shots those would be? Ones you would take with a .22 CF, that you wouldn't take with a .35 Whelen?

Not speaking for Form, but anything past +/-400 yards and particularly windy days or multiple wind directions cross canyon.

 

[WTFJohn]

In my opinion there are certainly conditions where a .358 250 grain Nosler Partition started off at 2500 fps would be far more suited than a 77 gr. .224 bullet started at 2600 fps. Having hunted elk in Timber in Wyoming and in western Washington there is zero chance I would choose a 223 with any bullet. Even deer in east Texas national forests a 223 would only be good for less than half the shot possibilities.

Yep. I see using the lighter rifles in more open country but in thick blackberry and salmonberry tangles, Mesquite thorn filled areas I want a bullet that will crush any bones on both sides and go out the other side. I have yet to kill an animal with my Whelen that didn't start leaking blood pretty fast. The 250 gr. round noses are awesome.

How do you judge what branches are too thick to shoot though? How thick can they be before hitting them deflects the bullet? Is this a learned skill on animals or did you work it out with bundles of sticks on the range? Do you get more wallop if that 250 gr round nose is tumbling for the last 30 yds and punches them in the pelvis going sideways?

 

[Formidilosus]

Would you mind sharing what kind of shots those would be? Ones you would take with a .22 CF, that you wouldn't take with a .35 Whelen?

Range and wind as Shraggs stated, but to the “angle” statement- anything that isn’t a direct chest shot I don’t want a narrow wounding bullet.
I’ve shot enough animals going away, whether an initial shot, or follow up shots, to see that full penetration to the chest is not a guarantee. Far from it. I’ve recovered quite a few Barnes TSX’s in stomachs that’s failed to penetrate to the diaphragm- including from a 375 H&H.
Mostly the “angle” argument comes from people with very little, and more often- no killing on very hard quartering away or straight facing away shots, and are just repeating gun writer BS.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Would you mind sharing what kind of shots those would be? Ones you would take with a .22 CF, that you wouldn't take with a .35 Whelen?

I think this probably had less to do with the .224 vs .358 part and more to with the Barnes vs heavy match part.

 

[MattiG]

The thing I find so interesting about this thread was something that was reinforced in two very different ways on two very recent occasions.

1. I was sighting in a new x-mas toy that has effectively no recoil. I found myself going through the same mental steps (squeeze slow and gentle enough that the crosshairs don't budge, let the trigger break be a "surprise") as on my 300wm and 6.5 and 6mm.

2. I took my son out a few weeks ago to see if he would shoot his first elk with the 300wm or if I needed to get him a softer shooting rifle. I told him the only rule was to squeeze slow enough to keep crosshairs locked and let the trigger break surprise you). His first 3 shots out of a 300wm (also first rifle bigger than 22) at 100 yards were a ragged edged hole on the bullseye.

Bottom line, the interesting thing is that it will always be more about the shooter than the gun. Because we're rank amateurs when it comes to marksmanship and rifle building. That said, once we start talking about self-spotting and follow up shots, the smaller the better. And it's why I just bought an heavy 6mm as a dedicated coyote gun.

As for elk, we're not hiking up mountains for ours, so the best of both worlds was the addition of a new chassis with PRS weights, bipod, and heavier can. If I were hiking, it's a tough call as to where the sweet spot would be on terminal ballistics vs recoil.

Interesting convo and thanks to the brain trust for all the food for thought.



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[Formidilosus]

I think this probably had less to do with the .224 vs .358 part and more to with the Barnes vs heavy match part.

Correct.