.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[bowrunner81]

No, energy isn't a by product. The only thing velocity does is describe lateral distance covered over time. Velocity does not cause the bullet to expand.

I said, or at least I thought I said, transferring energy is a byproduct. The bullet has energy when flying in the air. It uses that energy to expand a bullet . But the expansion mechanism and its expansion is based on velocity. The same bullet in different calibers and grain weights will have different amounts of energy but if they hit with similar velocities, they will have similar levels of expansion. Velocity is a better indicator of the expansion of a bullet than energy. You sound like you have taken a few engineering classes. I have too.

 

[Ozarkansas]

It's a touchy subject because if you shoot enough stuff, eventually you'll be standing where you thought the deer should be dead, with no blood, knowing you didn't miss, and never finding a dead animal. It happens to everyone at some point.

What someone said earlier about geography mattering was spot on. A guy hunting hay fields or open meadows has different criteria for sucess than I do.

Visibility in my woods is something you must see to appreciate. Here's one I shot last year. You can't get far enough away from the deer to get a picture of the whole thing. I MUST have ray Charles friendly blood trails, because you literally have to be standing on top of the deer to see it.

That said, I expect a 180gr partition out of a .30-06 to exit a 120 pound deer from 100 to 300 yards every single time no matter where I hit it. A bit simple but if it has a picture of an elk on the box, it oughta go through a swamp deer every time.

I’m 100% in agreement with you. I hunt the Ozarks and the areas that haven’t been burned in a couple of years can have visibility of less than 6’. I also bowhunt and consider myself a proficient blood trailer, so I’ll take a 50 yard trail with blood over a 15 yard trail with no blood- because grid searching a room-size patch of greenbriars and sweet gum regen sucks.

As far as failures go, I’ve never seen a bullet failure with 6mm, despite it being my, my dad’s, and my uncle’s primary deer caliber. What I have seen is a handful of hard tracking jobs due to a lack of exit. I’ve never seen a bullet exit and leave zero Blood, there’s always been at least some drops to follow. But I’ve had a couple of instances where the bullet didn’t exit and I couldn’t find any blood. Those instances mostly resulted in frustrating Brush-busting to find a deer that ran 50-75 yards. I’ve had no problems since switching to the .243 partition or the 6.5x55 with bonded bullets

 

[JohnJohnson]

Velocity does not cause the bullet to expand.

Hornady's website only mentions velocity when it comes to what is required for their ELD-X to perform. Barnes and Berger are the same, only mentioning velocity. Shouldn't they post a different minimum impact velocity for each bullet since the heavier ones have more energy at the same velocities?

What's the maximum range for acceptable terminal performance with ELD‑X bullets? - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

It depends on retained velocity and is therefore cartridge dependent. In general, the ELD-X bullets will provide reliable and effective terminal performance up to velocities of approximately 1,600 feet per second. Click here for more information on Hor...

www.hornady.com

 

[woods89]

I’m 100% in agreement with you. I hunt the Ozarks and the areas that haven’t been burned in a couple of years can have visibility of less than 6’. I also bowhunt and consider myself a proficient blood trailer, so I’ll take a 50 yard trail with blood over a 15 yard trail with no blood- because grid searching a room-size patch of greenbriars and sweet gum regen sucks.

As far as failures go, I’ve never seen a bullet failure with 6mm, despite it being my, my dad’s, and my uncle’s primary deer caliber. What I have seen is a handful of hard tracking jobs due to a lack of exit. I’ve never seen a bullet exit and leave zero Blood, there’s always been at least some drops to follow. But I’ve had a couple of instances where the bullet didn’t exit and I couldn’t find any blood. Those instances mostly resulted in frustrating Brush-busting to find a deer that ran 50-75 yards. I’ve had no problems since switching to the .243 partition or the 6.5x55 with bonded bullets

Honest question here.

Do you guys shoot high shoulder/base of the neck in these situations? I hunt some thicker areas as well, but not that thick, as a 30-50 yds death run isn't really a problem. If I was, I think that's probably the route I would take. I haven't used those shots a lot, but they have been quite effective when I have.

Just curious.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Honest question here.

Do you guys shoot high shoulder/base of the neck in these situations? I hunt some thicker areas as well, but not that thick, as a 30-50 yds death run isn't really a problem. If I was, I think that's probably the route I would take. I haven't used those shots a lot, but they have been quite effective when I have.

Just curious.

I’ve intentionally aimed for the shoulder before, but I hate losing one or both shoulders so I’d personally rather just put a bullet behind the shoulder and be confident that there will be enough blood to track it. I’ve also headshot pigs when I was in really nasty stuff but never deer.

 

[Macintosh]

Seems important (critical) to differentiate between a bullet performing exactly as it’s designed but that design not being a preference for whatever reason; versus a bullet failing to perform as it was designed. It seems perfectly valid to prefer a certain type of performance, while acknowledging that any one persons preferences are in no way universal. “Better” is subjective. “Within a reasonable distance” is subjective.
Seems reasonable for most adults to be able to discuss the objective part while allowing for differences on the subjective parts. I know with 100% certainty that’s a pipe dream, but Im just filled with hope today.

 

[JBahr]

Seems important (critical) to differentiate between a bullet performing exactly as it’s designed but that design not being a preference for whatever reason; versus a bullet failing to perform as it was designed. It seems perfectly valid to prefer a certain type of performance, while acknowledging that any one persons preferences are in no way universal. “Better” is subjective. “Within a reasonable distance” is subjective.
Seems reasonable for most adults to be able to discuss the objective part while allowing for differences on the subjective parts. I know with 100% certainty that’s a pipe dream, but Im just filled with hope today.

EXACTLY! Failure is subjective and the variables make the conversation almost pointless.

FOR ME.... I needed a lead free projectile for a depredation project on federal land. I chose the CX based on past success with the the GMX and built a load. The bullet did not expand as advertised well within the speed window purposely placed through an elk's lungs to avoid meat damage. The second bullet was placed high shoulder and recovered. It also did not expand as I expected. A Subjective bullet failure in my experience.

 

[Choupique]

Do you guys shoot high shoulder/base of the neck in these situations? I

Depends. Generally don't have much time to do anything other than try to get at least one shoulder. If I have time and it's a doe, I'll shoot them in the neck or maybe the head. I don't have much appetite for tracking/dragging a doe through that mess so it's only easy shots.

A buck, I don't care about losing some meat. One or preferably both shoulders. Any risk of them moving at all, shoot them again.

 

[woods89]

Makes sense, @Ozarkansas @Choupique . Thanks!

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Honest question here.

Do you guys shoot high shoulder/base of the neck in these situations? I hunt some thicker areas as well, but not that thick, as a 30-50 yds death run isn't really a problem. If I was, I think that's probably the route I would take. I haven't used those shots a lot, but they have been quite effective when I have.

Just curious.

Yes.

 

[Macintosh]

EXACTLY! Failure is subjective and the variables make the conversation almost pointless.

FOR ME.... I needed a lead free projectile for a depredation project on federal land. I chose the CX based on past success with the the GMX and built a load. The bullet did not expand as advertised well within the speed window purposely placed through an elk's lungs to avoid meat damage. The second bullet was placed high shoulder and recovered. It also did not expand as I expected. A Subjective bullet failure in my experience. View attachment 783376View attachment 783375View attachment 783372

For what it’s worth, it sounds like you have more experience than me if you are doing depredation “projects”, but at least the recovered bullet expanded. What was the impact velocity? It looks a little uneven, is that expanded 2x caliber diameter, 1.75x, 1.5x, etc? what were you expecting versus what you got?

 

[JBahr]

For what it’s worth, it sounds like you have more experience than me if you are doing depredation “projects”, but at least the recovered bullet expanded. What was the impact velocity? It looks a little uneven, is that expanded 2x caliber diameter, 1.75x, 1.5x, etc? what were you expecting versus what you got?

Muzzle Velocity is 3100, impact velocity at 300yards should have been ~2600, both shots same distance. Caliber sized entry and exit on the lung shot, lungs intact.

On the high shoulder shot caliber sized entry and no exit, bullet penetrated through hide, shoulder muscle, scapula and the rear was visible after removing that shoulder. Not terrible meat loss on the shoulder, just about three inches all around the wound. It appeared the bullet yawed and kit the spine but did not lodge into it.

My basis for calling it a failure is based on both shot results in comparison to the advertised expansion, see below and the reaction of the elk after the lung shot.
I knew the impact point of the first shot and waited about 10 seconds to shot the second as other cows cleared. She knew something was off and slowed down but looked to have the willpower to chase the herd. I aimed high shoulder purposely to end it. Had we not been in the open the result had a high likelihood of ending differently.

Same bullet for comparison. .308 left, .589 right.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I dont believe that those 2 yellow dots are in the same spot. There is much more bone and tissue above the lungs in that area than below. To me, the bruising at the top ish if the ribs on the left of the inside picture would align with the wound on the outside upper shoulder where the bullet was found.
The spine is fairly tall in that are so the cavity is offset lower. I think the light at the opening was where the esophigus (sp) would be, which is at the bottom part of the neck.
just my 2 cents.

The two yellow dots line up pretty well based on the couple of hundred of deer cavities that I have looked at.

As for the light, it is clearly at the top right of the neck, not the bottom. Additionally, as seen in the first picture, the neck is curved upward, which is common. Unless the neck was already cut off, you shouldn’t be able to see any light when looking down into the chest cavity.

My questions are based on the fact that I have opened up hundreds of deer and seen wounds of all kinds and, based on that experience, the evidence shown in the pictures don’t line up.

Also, for context, one of my previous jobs was to conduct failure investigations and lead root cause analyses for a very large power generation OEM. Whether it was a small component failure, a catastrophic machine failure, or in a couple of cases, a fatality, when the chain of logic didn’t add up it was always because evidence was missing or someone was lying to push an outcome desirable to them.

 

[S-3 ranch]

I have lost a couple of animals to both being under gunned and over gunned
I lost a couple of deer using my .223 with 55gr BTSP
& barns tsx , popped them right behind the shoulder and they ran into heavy brush and cactus .

One memorable over gun lose was a nice 10pt I shot behind the shoulder with a .300wm with hornday interbond 180gr
And saw the bullet kick up dirt down the road behind the buck ,
The guy sitting next to me said “ you shot high , I saw dust kick up “
We both scoured the road looking for blood and found nothing
But I had a feeling that I had punched his ticket ! And went back the next morning and found his head and backbone after the coyotes had eaten him
#2
I snuck up on a buck in a giant field and again shot behind the shoulder and he mule kicked and ran away so I punched him Texas heart shot in the culo/ arse hole and tumbled him
On exam 1st shot had taken out both lungs but didn’t expand much
2nd shot drove threw the body and lodged in his skin under his throat

#3 a buddy shot a nice nilgai with a 7RM with some Remington core-lok 175gr
Behind the shoulder into the lungs and it ran off & we couldn’t find any blood

Lesson learned is if I want to anchor a animal center punch the shoulder/ break bones and vitals
Never had a bullet blow up before because I don’t use Berger, eldx or M’s so I don’t have any experience , but I bet failure is imminent with out a perfect shot

 

[Antares]

Here's a 140 ELDM I recovered this weekend from a medium sized Sitka blacktail buck. Impact velocity was ~2050 fps. Entered at the left rump, bloke the pelvis and femur, through the guts, through the liver, through the lungs, and the bullet was recover inside the pericardium alongside the heart (which was also damaged). At least 18" of penetration, if not 24". I have shot a lot of deer and goats with ELDMs (73s and 140s) and I've yet to see insufficient penetration that would lead me to believe that the bullets are "grenading" or "blowing up."

 

[wapitibob]

Here's a 140 ELDM I recovered this weekend from a medium sized Sitka blacktail buck. Impact velocity was ~2050 fps. Entered at the left rump, bloke the pelvis and femur, through the guts, through the liver, through the lungs, and the bullet was recover inside the pericardium alongside the heart (which was also damaged). At least 18" of penetration, if not 24". I have shot a lot of deer and goats with ELDMs (73s and 140s) and I've yet to see insufficient penetration that would lead me to believe that the bullets are "grenading" or "blowing up."

View attachment 783534

caliber?
I'm getting kind of tired of 32# of calculated recoil and am looking at a 6 or 6.5 prc and lighter bullets.

 

[ElPollo]

Depends. Generally don't have much time to do anything other than try to get at least one shoulder. If I have time and it's a doe, I'll shoot them in the neck or maybe the head. I don't have much appetite for tracking/dragging a doe through that mess so it's only easy shots.

A buck, I don't care about losing some meat. One or preferably both shoulders. Any risk of them moving at all, shoot them again.

I would totally be a neck/head shooter in the conditions you describe.

 

[SloppyJ]

I started this shit show of a thread so I’ll explain.

In all honesty, I’m actually very much favor of giving small calibers a try. Especially now that my son is going to start hunting soon, .223 for deer has been on my mind.

The success threads are full of detail, pictures, videos, etc, and there is not much room for stories of failure.

I didn’t want to fully commit to my 10 year old being the test dummy with .223 vs deer for us. So I figured why not go ahead and create a thread that specifically asks for evidence that shows that it shouldn’t be done. A bit of a devils advocate research topic. If the success threads have been too one sided and given us a false sense of security in the smaller calibers, then this thread can be the voice that argues against that.

So far, I’m still planning on bringing my son to the woods and having him carry a Tikka .223, loaded with 73 gr ELD-Ms.

Dave I'm in the same boat. Headed out Saturday for the youth hunt with my son and his .223 tikka with 77tmks loaded up. I've seen him punch bullseyes out of targets with the thing and yet I'm still nervous. I've never shot a deer with a .223 either let alone seen one shot with it.

I've participated in the .223 thread and have seen all of the carnage in there. However there's only so much reading can do to raise my confidence. In my mind I have no doubt that the combo is extremely capable. It goes against the grain and common "wisdom" that i was taught which makes it feel a bit risky.

No one wants to set their kids up for failure but at some point to put this to bed we just have to get out and get some hands on experience.

Thanks for making the thread, I know the intent was pure. It trickles through my mind as well. Good luck and I hope you and your kiddos have a successful hunt. Cant wait to see the pics and can't wait to share ours.

 

[Antares]

caliber?
I'm getting kind of tired of 32# of calculated recoil and am looking at a 6 or 6.5 prc and lighter bullets.

18" 6.5CM shooting 140 ELDMs at 2490.

Next year I'm switching to an 18" 6CM shooting 108 ELDMs.

 

[Choupique]

No one wants to set their kids up for failure but at some point to put this to bed we just have to get out and get some hands on experience.

That's why I'll be using my AR on some does this season to test out the .223 match bullets thing myself before my kids old enough to hunt.