Why cant people accept the fact that some people dont need a drop tested scope?

pods8 (Rugged Stitching) said:
NO ONE SUGGESTED THAT. :) I think we've beaten to death the fact that "most hunters shoot game at distances that it wouldn't matter if the scope had a notable zero shift". That also falls under, use what works for you. Just don't pretend that means scopes don't shift is the point. Dead animals at close ranges doesn't validate whether a scope shifts or not.
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Maybe not in that language- but look what happens when someone posts about continuing to use or purchasing a Leupold (for example). It’s always “WHY would you do that when there are proven models!? Why would you risk the hunt of a lifetime? What happens when you fall 400 vertical feet down a mountain like I do every time I go for a walk in the mountains, because I’m hardcore (tongue slightly in cheek)?” Just ignore it.

I’ve never seen the shift in my own scopes, and a small shift wouldn’t matter for 99% of my shots on game anyway, yet here I am spending a bunch money and making my rifles heavier because it’s been a long winter with too much time to read shit on Rokslide. I like my new scopes, but there is no doubt the Leupold scope caps are way better than other options.


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JGRaider said:
These presumptuous and somewhat arrogant type posts always crack me up. IIRC, nobody from the mandatory drop test club has been with me when I zero, load test, or much less kill all the animals I kill. Pretending there's a shift from a "non approved" scope is laughable at best.
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What are you even talking about?

How they hell did you get from some scopes can shift and IF they do many hunters wouldn't notice to being personally butt hurt about your scope of choice? No one cares about what you use.
 
wyosam said:
Maybe not in that language- but look what happens when someone posts about continuing to use or purchasing a Leupold (for example). It’s always “WHY would you do that when there are proven models!? Why would you risk the hunt of a lifetime? What happens when you fall 400 vertical feet down a mountain like I do every time I go for a walk in the mountains, because I’m hardcore (tongue slightly in cheek)?” Just ignore it.

I’ve never seen the shift in my own scopes, and a small shift wouldn’t matter for 99% of my shots on game anyway, yet here I am spending a bunch money and making my rifles heavier because it’s been a long winter with too much time to read shit on Rokslide. I like my new scopes, but there is no doubt the Leupold scope caps are way better than other options.


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Fair enough, you got the over the top folks like that in some magnitude and then you have a much larger magnitude chest thumbing about brand X being the best and they kill everything and their grand pappy knew best and ... ;)
 
pods8 (Rugged Stitching) said:
How much zero shift is acceptable in a scope for close range hunters? ;)

I think when you factor in eastern hunters and stand hunters its probably <200yd, maybe even <150yds. Not uncommon to have eastern hunters mention they've never shot past 100yd ever. You could have a 6MOA shift and still likely kill at 100yd...
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Couldn't agree more with Eastern hunting, spent a year in North Carolina and never had a shot over 230 yards (got 3 whitetails) when I deliberately looked for an open area to set up on. Hunting friends I met there never had gone over 100 yards. Wanted me to teach them the technique to shoot at "long ranges", lol.

Colorado has much more open areas, friends in camp for 30 years have had a Leupold or less so to speak. Shots out to 400 yards are successful (usually 150-350 yds). If a persons frame of reference is 100 to 150 yard shots being long range, it isn't long range.

chindits said:
All the time and that’s in the same shooting session with a 2.5-15 creedo. Every time I check my target and move it back another 100 meters I can count on an impact shift. But since I’m shooting off a pack in different positions with the wind picking up as the sun rises I could give a crap. I’m still good to 700 meters.
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Good post. Got me thinking, how many guys with drop tested scopes can say they have never had a wandering shot that wasn't a called flyer at some point in a range session either beginning middle or end?
 
pods8 (Rugged Stitching) said:
What are you even talking about?

How they hell did you get from some scopes can shift and IF they do many hunters wouldn't notice to being personally butt hurt about your scope of choice? No one cares about what you use.
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They must. People like you continue to whine and cry about "zero shift" from "non approved internet test scopes", and people like that never notice the shift BS. That's what that argument is......BS.
 
pods8 (Rugged Stitching) said:
NO ONE SUGGESTED THAT. :) …
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Au contraire! Should you even suggest a non-dropped scope on the Rokslide there will be those ardent believers leaping off their soap box onto their high horse and following the band wagon all while parroting the message loud and strong via the keyboard that you are doomed, doomed I say, to failure should you even consider such a device on your rifle! ;)

Mind you, the person actually doing the testing is not sending such a message.

It’s almost comical now, as soon as I see a scope mentioned I know the comments are coming…3,2,1 yup, there it is… It’s all entertaining at this point. Almost makes me want to remove my SWFA 6X and get an old FX ii 6X and see if I can still shoot anything.
 
prm said:
If “needed”, then explain the previous hundred years of hunting?

I appreciate the drops and think they represent exactly the way sights should evolve and the shift in what should be considered important. But to suggest you can’t use a non-dropped scope and have a lifetime of happy hunting simply ignores historical precedent. This is not an all or nothing factor.
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Let's change this, telescopic sights are not "needed" based on the previous hundred years of hunting. As that is your standard, then you must accept the proposition that recommending a flip up, sliding rear iron and a thin front blade is valid for long range hunting. After all, we have documented successful uses of such set ups at 800 yards (Battle of Belleau Wood).

If "need" is the criteria for a recommendation, then recommending a scope at all is invalid. Why stop at 100 years though? Why not 300 years? Ergo, a centerfire rifle is not "needed" and thus cannot be recommended either.
 
prm said:
Au contraire! Should you even suggest a non-dropped scope on the Rokslide there will be those ardent believers leaping off their soap box onto their high horse and following the band wagon all while parroting the message loud and strong via the keyboard that you are doomed, doomed I say, to failure should you even consider such a device on your rifle! ;)

Mind you, the person actually doing the testing is not sending such a message.

It’s almost comical now, as soon as I see a scope mentioned I know the comments are coming…3,2,1 yup, there it is… It’s all entertaining at this point. Almost makes me want to remove my SWFA 6X and get an old FX ii 6X and see if I can still shoot anything.
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There will also be someone that jumps in and bashes those "ardent believers" and anyone that mentions drop tests too.

Its almost as if you have to recognize that there will be extremists on both sides and you should probably just ignore them.

People that will only buy what Form suggest and people that buy any scope because thats what dad used...they are the same people on different sides of the coin.
 
Marbles said:
Let's change this, telescopic sights are not "needed" based on the previous hundred years of hunting. As that is your standard, then you must accept the proposition that recommending a flip up, sliding rear iron and a thin front blade is valid for long range hunting. After all, we have documented successful uses of such set ups at 800 yards (Battle of Belleau Wood).

If "need" is the criteria for a recommendation, then recommending a scope at all is invalid. Why stop at 100 years though? Why not 300 years? Ergo, a centerfire rifle is not "needed" and thus cannot be recommended either.
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That’s a whole other can of worms though. I’ve actually had more iron sight failures in the field while hunting that I have had scope failures. Had the rear sight adjustment ramp disappear on my model 94 on a backpack hunt about 35years ago. Also missed an easy shot a buck multiple times on a horseback hunt with a different model 94, then noticed the front blade had moved way off to one side. Almost certainly user error and poor mounting, but still.


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wyosam said:
That’s a whole other can of worms though. I’ve actually had more iron sight failures in the field while hunting that I have had scope failures. Had the rear sight adjustment ramp disappear on my model 94 on a backpack hunt about 35years ago. Also missed an easy shot a buck multiple times on a horseback hunt with a different model 94, then noticed the front blade had moved way off to one side. Almost certainly user error and poor mounting, but still.


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There we go guys, sounds like we just need to start suggesting no sights. Bare barrel only.
 
wyosam said:
That’s a whole other can of worms though. I’ve actually had more iron sight failures in the field while hunting that I have had scope failures. Had the rear sight adjustment ramp disappear on my model 94 on a backpack hunt about 35years ago. Also missed an easy shot a buck multiple times on a horseback hunt with a different model 94, then noticed the front blade had moved way off to one side. Almost certainly user error and poor mounting, but still.


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Click to expand...
But, the argument was on need, not failure rate. I said nothing about irons being more reliable.

Reliable systems are not "needed." Optical sights are not "needed." Centerfire rifles are not "needed." If the argument against recommending a drop tested sight is "need" then many things cannot be recommended.
 
Say some newbie posts “Hey, I’m new to RS and I’m looking at buying a new scope. I’ve narrowed my choice down to between X Brand and Y Brand scopes. What do you think fellow Sliders?”

Apart from requests for more info ("what are you hunting, where and at what distance?"), what are the appropriate response(s)?
  1. None. Real Hunters don't ask for scope, caliber, load or other input from strangers on the internet. This new member is inferior. (Notable exception/inconsistency - if you are a Real Hunter who doesn't need stranger input, you are of course willing to give your opinions and superior knowledge, to strangers, on the internet.)
  2. Only answer the direct and limited question - X Brand vs Y Brand. Do not introduce Z Brand as an alternative, for any reason (subject to #3 and/or #4).
  3. If, and only if, you have first-hand experience with X Brand or Y Brand scopes, you can share that experience - even including issues relating to reliability.
  4. If the OP instead specifically asks about reliability, and you have drop tested your own scope, then you can refer them to the scope evaluations - but only with the caveats that all manufactures think the tests are not only unnecessary, but that they are flawed in design, statistically invalid due to numbers, etc. And that the tests fail to account for many peoples' favorable experiences with all of the scopes in question.
  5. We can each tell the rookie what we think and let the rookie make a decision based on the entire thread of posts.
 
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