What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[35WhelenAI]

There's "desperation" when there isn't a choice, and there is not desperation and having many choices under the sun.

I think we agree in a desperation or no choice situation we're going to make the best of what we have, and I would make sure that a 22LR was used appropriately to take care of business. No way in hell would I choose one unless a last resort, as most would agree.

Folks shoot smaller calibers because, on the whole, they are most comfortable from a recoil perspective, practicing perspective. I would suspect most folks getting into hunting choosing a gun or two aren't choosing a larger case/caliber. Relating to learning to shoot with a heavier recoiling rifle is foreign. It's understandable they have a harder time understanding how some folks do shoot them pretty well.

I go the other way and would rather have a larger caliber and more bullet weight that can handle different shot presentation angles in the field and spend my time practicing with a lighter recoiling rifle. Most shots I've seen here are broadside with the smaller calibers. With a larger caliber and controlled expansion bullet, hard angle shots can be taken with confidence and kill spectacularly.

 

[Formidilosus]

I go the other way and would rather have a larger caliber and more bullet weight that can handle different shot presentation angles in the field and spend my time practicing with a lighter recoiling rifle. Most shots I've seen here are broadside with the smaller calibers. With a larger caliber and controlled expansion bullet, hard angle shots can be taken with confidence and kill spectacularly.

Are you ever going to stop repeating this nonsense?

 

[nagibson1]

Are you ever going to stop repeating this nonsense?

I think the crux of it is that some of us have witnessed a significant rate of failure ourselves with lower calibers on even deer sized game. We have used quality bullets and made good shots and not gotten the performance we were looking for. Thus, others can accumulate lots of positive examples of success, but we don't know what kind of sample that is out of across the hunting population. I've seen TONS of great bow kill pictures, but still 1/5 of deer just do go unrecovered. I presume that a number of the guys killing stuff with the .223's are SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER SHOTS AND HUNTERS THAN ME. I consider my view a prudential and humble one- not a judgmental and arrogant one.

Not only am I not the American Sniper, I am also not Aragorn son of Arathorn. I want an exit wound, and I want a real blood trail. In my own experience, mostly with 100 gr hornady interlocks, if I shoot a deer in the shoulder, I'm not normally going to get an exit wound, even if the shot is inside 40yds. Since I cut my teeth hunting in FL swamps, deer running off without serious blood trails was unworkable. Also, I cannot think of a deer I have not recovered with a .243 that I shot vitally. When I was shooting .30 Sierra HP game kings, I did lose a couple does I definitely shot vitally. Obviously bullet performance is critical. But those were lost because there was no blood trail.

So I am not saying that a lot of you guys aren't dialed in with small calibers and doing great. My buddy in FL who shot 85gr partitions in .243 was never looking for his deer. I'm saying that there are real experience sets that have seen no-confidence performance from low calibers on deer sized game enough that we don't trust them to be up to whatever situation we are in- for range, game size, or game position. Then when some of us spend $2,000 to go out west at best once a year, we don't want to have any doubt about our cartridge at the moment of truth.

For example, my opportunities at elk this trip were:
1. huge bull at 50yrds. Don't want to talk about it.
2. raghorn at 220 through trees (first hour, we passed)
3. 340 bull @ 387 across canyon.

We had to take the third opportunity. At that range with 15-17MPH winds @ 8000ft in 31 degrees- I couldn't be 100% where I could hit that bull within a couple inches shooting at a 45degree downward angle. If I had been carrying a .223AI, I'm not sure I'd have trusted MYSELF to make that shot, even if it is in the gun's technical capacity. Thus, I think using the larger calibers that have very manageable recoil makes sense for people like me.

Is that still nonsense?

 

[Don Fischer]

There's "desperation" when there isn't a choice, and there is not desperation and having many choices under the sun.

I think we agree in a desperation or no choice situation we're going to make the best of what we have, and I would make sure that a 22LR was used appropriately to take care of business. No way in hell would I choose one unless a last resort, as most would agree.

Folks shoot smaller calibers because, on the whole, they are most comfortable from a recoil perspective, practicing perspective. I would suspect most folks getting into hunting choosing a gun or two aren't choosing a larger case/caliber. Relating to learning to shoot with a heavier recoiling rifle is foreign. It's understandable they have a harder time understanding how some folks do shoot them pretty well.

I go the other way and would rather have a larger caliber and more bullet weight that can handle different shot presentation angles in the field and spend my time practicing with a lighter recoiling rifle. Most shots I've seen here are broadside with the smaller calibers. With a larger caliber and controlled expansion bullet, hard angle shots can be taken with confidence and kill spectacularly.

Of course it would be a last resort! But it would work. Your point that heavier bullets give better shot angles is well taken. Think I mentioned that! Also mentioned larger caliber give better bullet options. And well aware that smaller calibers with lighter bullet's are easier to shoot well with less recoil.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

To be clear, I did not, and wouldn't say that I think .22 caliber bullets or loads are not highly capable. Many hunters I know drop caliber over time as they hone in on better loads and grow in shooting ability over time, while getting over young, macho caliber mentalities. I think that's great.

What I AM saying is that I have seen smaller calibers NOT do the job- especially if you want a pass through. Our moose hunting friend was right to assume I'm thinking shoulder involved shots. I have had 100gr .243 premium bullets not exit 160lb deer. 2 weeks ago I saw an ELD from a 6.5 creed not go through a bull spine- though it DID drop the bull and paralyze it. One of the hunters on that trip had to shoot his bull 4 times with his .243 this season for it to expire. I have many such stories since the .243 was a caliber of choice in FL when I lived there.

It is arguable that in most of these stories these may have been sub-optimal shots, or not the best bullet of choice. But I know my shots were on and I used modern premium bullets. Thus I PREFER shooting cartridges in the sweetspot of .25 to .30 that do not diminish my accuracy with recoil. Part of this is my feelings. I just don't trust my .243 knowing that I may not have an optimal shot angle offered to me in the Wisconsin deer woods. Those feelings are rooted in my experiences with failures.

To appeal to a compilation of successes attributable to .223 success can tells us success can be achieved, but it doesn't tell us if it is advisable given the alternative options. The male mind tends to push the limits on competitive vectors. For some it's increasing cartridge capacity. For some it's getting all new Kuiu camo and layers. For some guys it's how little we can buy and be successful. And I think that for some of us it's how little gun we can kill stuff with. That's cool. But i do think these can all be "fads"- a way we can push the envelope as far as it can go. I'd rather do it in the .223 direction than in the .338 magnum direction.
Thus to answer the original questions, "why is rokslide seeming to move for smaller calibers?" I offer two:
1. there are good advantages to it. It's a counter to 50 years of caliber inflation that probably HAS been a fad, consumeristic and mostly unproductive.
2. It is in the heart of man to take something as far as it can go. We are competitive and explorers. It's why we go to the woods in the first place. I can't wait for the .221 .

What were the “premium” bullets used in those cases?

 

[nagibson1]

What were the “premium” bullets used in those cases?

Hornady interlocks and ELD's in most cases I'm personally connected with. I've also seen 85gr partitions not exit on deer, even in pretty hot loads.

 

[nagibson1]

View attachment 792781
88 ELD m ala 223AI at 352 yards, square on.

Yeah KHntr, with an 88gr bullet and AI capacity increase, it seems like that would perform as well as a .243 in 2002 at least. Were these three all 1 shot kills? And did the shots produce a bleeding exit wound? I would love to feel confident shooting a lower caliber with all it's benefits and efficiencies. I have just been feeling like "lowest" for me would be 6.5ish- .260/7-08 or the like.
But as I'm trying to lengthen my effective range, I want something that can grow with me. I'm out to 430 in ideal circumstances, but I'd like to get to 550 eventually. That's why I've stuck with the 30-06 or considered 280ai or 6.5prc as the "lowest" I could go.
For years I've sought to be a .243 for deer and 30-06 for elk guy, and my kids learn on reduced loads in .243 and .270 after they learn the basics in 22lr and an AR platform .223. I'd really like to get down to one gun. even one load.

 

[FredH]

Are you ever going to stop repeating this nonsense?

So a 250 grain Nosler Partition out of a 35 Whelen has absolutely nothing on a 223 using relatively soft hunting/match style bullets? Personally I feel that for most of us a 7-08 running good bullets weighing 120-140 grains at the same velocities or higher than a 223 can push the 77 gr. TMK is at a minimum going to do as well and on average outperform it every time. Looking further into it the 22 ARC pushing the same bullets as the 223 might be a better choice than the 223. I am not saying the 77 TMK isn't of value at the speeds the 223 is capable of I just don't see it as smashingly better than a lot of other mild kicking rifles.

 

[FredH]

Of course it would be a last resort! But it would work. Your point that heavier bullets give better shot angles is well taken. Think I mentioned that! Also mentioned larger caliber give better bullet options. And well aware that smaller calibers with lighter bullet's are easier to shoot well with less recoil.

Maybe so but for me anyway heavy loads from a 7MM RM or a 30-06 do not effect my ability to place bullets in the right place.

 

[goalie]

The whole "stop liking what I don't like" stuff never fails to amuse me.

It's pretty hard to argue that you can't effectively kill with a .223/5.56. If you don't like it, or feel comfortable doing it, don't.

And I say that as someone who shot his buck this year with a 45/70.........

 

[KHntr]

Yeah KHntr, with an 88gr bullet and AI capacity increase, it seems like that would perform as well as a .243 in 2002 at least. Were these three all 1 shot kills? And did the shots produce a bleeding exit wound? I would love to feel confident shooting a lower caliber with all it's benefits and efficiencies. I have just been feeling like "lowest" for me would be 6.5ish- .260/7-08 or the like.
But as I'm trying to lengthen my effective range, I want something that can grow with me. I'm out to 430 in ideal circumstances, but I'd like to get to 550 eventually. That's why I've stuck with the 30-06 or considered 280ai or 6.5prc as the "lowest" I could go.
For years I've sought to be a .243 for deer and 30-06 for elk guy, and my kids learn on reduced loads in .243 and .270 after they learn the basics in 22lr and an AR platform .223. I'd really like to get down to one gun. even one load.

The AI capacity increase is negligible. Just looks cooler and reduces case trimming.

For me the shooting is the fun part, and follow up with a 223 is FAST when the crosshairs don’t leave the animal when you rack a second round.
Two moose were immediately down at the shot (the little bulls) and the big bull managed three hops and took a second one as he was falling over sideways. In retrospect I should’ve let him just fall over, but I don’t have any will power when stuff is still upright after the first round is sent, no matter the cartridge.

Not sure that a “bleeding exit wound” is necessary when stuff dies within single digit yardages?

Regardless of that, I’ve shot several pickup loads of elk and moose with 300wm, 264wm, 280AI, 7wsm, and 300 Ultra, using predominantly TSX/TTSX/bonded premiums, and had very very few bleeding exit wounds. And to be honest, not a ton of exits period. If I can’t count on getting an exit from a 180/200 gr mono at 3000+ fps, then what difference does it make in the real world? I would MUCH rather have that animal dead from a massive internal wound cavity within a few seconds, versus walking up to one that needs a finisher because I shot him with a premium bonded or mono that created a smaller wound in his lungs.

And I’m a dedicated shoulder puncher, regardless of angle, regardless of whether it’s an 88gr ELD m or 200 gr TSX.

Fun fact, none of the critters I’ve shot with an ELD m or Amax have needed a finisher when I walked up to them. A lot of critters shot with harder bullets were still gasping their last when I got there.

I’ve caught way too many TSX/TTSX to ever concern myself with an exit on anything anymore, other than the exit the bullet makes in the rib cage on its way to the offside shoulder.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Form, whatever you say. It's easier to shoot smaller cartridges over and over and repeatedly, but the way you say it, it's like it's all or none. That somehow a hundred years of success shooting larger cartridges is null and void. I don't subscribe to that. Calling something nonsense is dismissive when there's more to it than all one way or all the other.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, whatever you say.

What angle do you believe can not be taken effectively with .224 and .243 good bullets?

There is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. I do not believe you are stupid, however you do seem to desire willfull ignorance. There are two very large threads that show any angle you can think of with extremely effective outcomes and massive destruction with smaller caliber projectiles on the largest animals on this continent- why don’t you read and learn so that you aren’t continually repeating non-factual statements?

It is completely logical I say “I like the 35 Whelen”. It is completely illogical and purposefully misfactual to state that smaller calibers limit shot angels- with zero personal experience using them, and in-spit of MASSIVE evidence to the contrary.


Exit elk scapula after going through onside scapula, ribs, lungs, ribs- also exited the elk.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I'm open to learning. Going in behind the ribs, diagonally through an elk exiting in front of/through an offside shoulder is a shot the smaller bullets can accomplish readily?

 

[35WhelenAI]

I'm open to learning. Going in behind the ribs, diagonally through an elk exiting in front of/through an offside shoulder is a shot the smaller bullets can accomplish readily?

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm open to learning. Going in behind the ribs, diagonally through an elk exiting in front of/through an offside shoulder is a shot the smaller bullets can accomplish readily?

Yes- proven hundreds of times in the threads you won’t read, and shown in the picture above going through both “shoulders”.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Yes sometimes old habits die hard. I'm seeing there's more than one way to skin the elk.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Form.....I see Bryce Townsley has, and now editor in chief J. Scott Omstead are calling you .223 for large game and long range small caliber hunting guys out.....publicly, in American Hunter magazine (NRA). Not you specifically, but the concept you are pushing(perhaps he knows of the RS 223 pages). Page 8 of the December issue. Me personally, I don't care a lot about what others shoot but I certainly won't be doing it since I can handle the cartridges that I shoot. I just find it interesting, with the wider viewpoint on the concept, outside of RS. Seems you have an excellent opportunity to set them right, like you attempt to do here. Somehow, I don't think you will exercise it.

 

[Spoonbill]

Form.....I see Bryce Townsley has, and now editor in chief J. Scott Omstead are calling you .223 for large game and long range small caliber hunting guys out.....publicly, in American Hunter magazine (NRA). Not you specifically, but the concept you are pushing(perhaps he knows of the RS 223 pages). Page 8 of the December issue. Me personally, I don't care a lot about what others shoot but I certainly won't be doing it since I can handle the cartridges that I shoot. I just find it interesting, with the wider viewpoint on the concept, outside of RS. Seems you have an excellent opportunity to set them right, like you attempt to do here. Somehow, I don't think you will exercise it.

Do you have a link to the article?

 

[35WhelenAI]

This is going to be interesting.