What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[goalie]

I'm old. I used to think red dots or optics on rifles were unnecessary. We qualified to 500 with irons. We didn't need any optic or dot.

Then I tried an Aimpoint.

I was wrong. They're faster and just plain better in every way.

Anyhow I learned that conventional wisdom is often anything but.

 

[gabenzeke]

I can't help it. It has to be pointed out. FPC>NRA

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[fwafwow]

I can't help it. It has to be pointed out. FPC>NRA

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Agreed. But it’s a pretty low bar.

 

[pacoalcracker]

anyone trying to keep people away from taking our hunting and shooting rights away, regardless how efficient they are....seems to be better than nothing. i am 100% certain, if not for the NRA and SCI actions over the past decades, none of us would have hunting and shooting rights today. don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

 

[fwafwow]

anyone trying to keep people away from taking our hunting and shooting rights away, regardless how efficient they are....seems to be better than nothing. i am 100% certain, if not for the NRA and SCI actions over the past decades, none of us would have hunting and shooting rights today. don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I guess we can agree to disagree. There’s no way to compare the NRA to what might have been if they didn’t spend so lavishly on themselves. Maybe they saved our rights, maybe they didn’t. But they could have done better and still have room for improvement. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[nagibson1]

Is there a range limit for

Yeah KHntr, with an 88gr bullet and AI capacity increase, it seems like that would perform as well as a .243 in 2002 at least. Were these three all 1 shot kills? And did the shots produce a bleeding exit wound? I would love to feel confident shooting a lower caliber with all it's benefits and efficiencies. I have just been feeling like "lowest" for me would be 6.5ish- .260/7-08 or the like.
But as I'm trying to lengthen my effective range, I want something that can grow with me. I'm out to 430 in ideal circumstances, but I'd like to get to 550 eventually. That's why I've stuck with the 30-06 or considered 280ai or 6.5prc as the "lowest" I could go.
For years I've sought to be a .243 for deer and 30-06 for elk guy, and my kids learn on reduced loads in .243 and .270 after they learn the basics in 22lr and an AR platform .223. I'd really like to get down to one gun. even one load.

Would someone advocating small caliber answer this range question?

 

[woods89]

@pacoalcracker , I'm probably being overly grumpy about this. Don't take me too seriously.
We set trusses in the wind today, it's made me a little irascible tonight....

 

[gabenzeke]

Is there a range limit for

Would someone advocating small caliber answer this range question?

Your range is limited by velocity provided you're accurate enough. 77 tmk for example is I believe reliable to 1800 fps.

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[Bluefish]

So a 250 grain Nosler Partition out of a 35 Whelen has absolutely nothing on a 223 using relatively soft hunting/match style bullets? Personally I feel that for most of us a 7-08 running good bullets weighing 120-140 grains at the same velocities or higher than a 223 can push the 77 gr. TMK is at a minimum going to do as well and on average outperform it every time. Looking further into it the 22 ARC pushing the same bullets as the 223 might be a better choice than the 223. I am not saying the 77 TMK isn't of value at the speeds the 223 is capable of I just don't see it as smashingly better than a lot of other mild kicking rifles.

First let me say I own and hunt with a 35 whelen, but after not getting a result I expected on an animal I started looking at why.

The 250g partition vs a 77 Tmk. Max load per nosler is 2600 fps, you can buy a 2750 load with the 77 tmk. The 77tmk is faster out to 500 yards and drops below 1800 about 475 yards. The 35 whelen makes it to about 450 yards before dropping below 1800. Wind for both is almost the same out to 450 yards. If speed is key to making a bullet work, both are close in speed and drift up to usable range.

Now let’s look at recoil, the 35 whelen in a 8 lb rifle is 34 ftlbs. The 77 tmk is 4.4. Which one is easier to shoot?

The 35 whelen has the potential to do a lot more damage, but a partition is designed not to maximize the wound channel and conserve energy to make sure some of the bullet exits. Also the recoil is huge. Pretty sure no one can shoot it as well as a 223.

I only take my 35 whelen now when I need longer range even though i have to use 35 cal or bigger. I have other rifles that can do the job with less recoil.

 

[atmat]

i am 100% certain, if not for the NRA and SCI actions over the past decades, none of us would have hunting and shooting rights today.

The fact that you’re comfortable saying “100% certain” about something you can’t remotely test makes me doubt anything else you say. It’s exacerbated by the fact that NRA is an incredibly poorly-run, borderline-fraudulent organization.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Regardless of the NRA improperly spending, don't think for one second they haven't been a firewall for shooting and second amendment rights. What the hell?

 

[Spoonbill]

Regardless of the NRA improperly spending, don't think for one second they haven't been a firewall for shooting and second amendment rights. What the hell?

Not to derail this thread too much but the NRA supported the Hughes Amendment and the AWB. With the AWB they said “well we fought for a 10 year sunset ban on it.”
I have other examples but to get this thread back on track…. I took my 243 elk hunting this year to prove a point that it killed just as well if not better than my buddies boomer mags. Unfortunately I never got a chance to get a shot off.

 

[Dobermann]

I know some of those writers like Bryce Towsley are fans of the 338 and up so I am interested to read what he says.

I don't know much about Bryce Towsley, but a I once read a book of his, which contained all sorts of misinformation ... not someone I'd be seeking credible terminal performance data from ...

 

[SwiftShot]

There's a TON of posts on cartridge selection and bullet threads that go "have you read" the following:
1) the .223 thread
2) the 6mm thread
3) the 6.5mm thread

I've read those, and see a lot of animals and wound channels. I likely missed the nexus or catalyst for what has created this, but Rokslide is very much a place where you're going to get a posting response such as:
"you don't need a 7 PRC, get 7mm-08"
"Magnums are uneccesary to effectively kill game < 700 yards"
etc etc.
@Ryan Avery you shifted from margin of error, big 30s, and came around to super fast 6mm like 6 UM in like 2 years. What was the main thing that changed your mind?

I've read one comment along the lines of "being tired of the constant recommendations for smallest cartridge possible" or similar. I imagine that sentiment is not singular.

My Question: is the justifcation or cause of this people successfully killing animals with smaller catridges and caliber bullets using match-type bullets creating large wound channels? I've heard hit rates/statistics cited, but unsure where to read about this. For those "converts" who have seen the smaller cartridge light - can you please expain to me what/why? If repeated elsewhere in hundreds of pages of the evidence based (ie kills) threads, I still thought it might be useful to tuck the "why" topic into a dedicated thread.

Again I'm not saying it is wrong - I'm just noticing a very prevelant trend and trying to fully understand it. And I own a 6.5CM which was purchased due to cheaper ammo, less recoil, availability, etc so I have some understanding and experience with the benefits cited. I also own a suppresssed 7 PRC, which I read is basically too much recoil/gun for western hunting? I think Form said somewhere a full 6.5 PRC around 16 ft-lb of recoil was the practical limit for most adults, and they always do better < 10 ft-lbs?

I've heard the Shoot2Hunt podcasts and read the threads, and haven't walked away with a clear "why."

Brief me. Please.

There is a very vocal person selling it on rokslide. He is the 223 thread.

 

[fwafwow]

Would folks defend the NRA if it was run by pedophiles if the results were good? It’s a rhetorical question, but assuming the answer is “no” then defending the organization despite what management actually did just means some have drawn a different line in what behavior is not acceptable based on the outcomes.

And just think of how well the NRA could protect our rights in the future if they had not wasted (or worse) all of that money. What a war chest they would have.

I’m a Life Member and would like to give more, if the NRA was overhauled.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Just because your wife overspends at the store and still can't cook very well...but, you're not starving and eat what she cooks...does not make her a terrible wife and cause for divorce. Same for NRA.

 

[fwafwow]

Just because your wife overspends at the store and still can't cook very well...but, you're not starving and eat what she cooks...does not make her a terrible wife and cause for divorce. Same for NRA.

What if your wife stole your money and spent it at the store on a boyfriend?

Yeah, we have derailed what was already a tangent. Sorry to the OP and everyone else.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Rokslide is a unique combination, lots of folks with different views and lots of folks that different things work for them, and created a following for the smaller calibers.

NRA: the people were the problem, not necessarily the majority of issues they stood for. When it comes to second amendment and similar rights, would I want them representing what I believe or not. It's a lesser of evils, if you will.

 

[sclb745]

I don't have near the clout as some of the guys on here, but I've not carried my 7RM in two seasons and opt for my 6.5 CM these days. When I shot my first deer with a 140 ELDM, even after seeing all the success, I was nervous as blank. But when the bullet impacted the deer and the ground was swept out from under him, nerves were no more. Was even more impressed when I dressed the deer and saw the internal damage.

I admit, I've got some of that old school fudd mentality of needing two holes in the animal and have not went smaller than the 6.5 CM yet, but it's also my smallest bolt rifle in the safe. That will be different next year. I'll either have a 6 ARC or 6 CM that I'll carry and will stick to the 108 ELDM in either. There really is no reason for me to carry anything bigger than that in the woods.

 

[pacoalcracker]

I did find the article written in AH by Towsley "The Importance of Long Range Values". It was the October issue and it starts on page 48. He recommends the minimum of 6.5 caliber and 130gr bullet for longer range hunting of any big game if you are going to engage, even though he clearly does not condone it. He goes into his reasoning and his experiments shooting at LR with some experts. Yeah, he is calling it out and he says he has been for a long time but too many are out to prove something that isn't in sportsmans best interests. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, but he does have a large hunting audience and I'm sure plenty of anti-hunter readers as well.

As for me, I will stick to my 270 or 308 for Pa deer and bear hunting and 7prc and 300wsm for anything farther to my self-limited range of 450 yards if I absolutely had to. You can almost always get closer than that if you try. I have nothing to "prove" by extending that range or shoot a 223 for big game....but to each their own.