What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[tony]

The cartridge is irrelevant it’s about a type of bullet and the speed it is going at whatever range you are wanting to shoot.

Thanks
That's what I was meaning to say

 

[Dave0317]

@CMP70306
A big factor in weight of bullet vs rifling twist is bullet length. So if you are trying to find a heavier bullet that will stabilize well in a slow twist, look for shorter designs. A flat base instead of a boat tail and a rounder soft point instead of a long narrow ELD style tip.

BC won’t be good, but inside of 300 yards, I bet you won’t see a difference.

Not sure how heavy this could get your buddy, but it might be worth loading up a few rounds to try. Maybe the Speer Hot Cor or similar.

 

[CMP70306]

That 60g TMK might be the jam for his slow twist 22-250. Not sure if he handloads of would be willing to change.

Jay

@CMP70306
A big factor in weight of bullet vs rifling twist is bullet length. So if you are trying to find a heavier bullet that will stabilize well in a slow twist, look for shorter designs. A flat base instead of a boat tail and a rounder soft point instead of a long narrow ELD style tip.

BC won’t be good, but inside of 300 yards, I bet you won’t see a difference.

Not sure how heavy this could get your buddy, but it might be worth loading up a few rounds to try. Maybe the Speer Hot Cor or similar.

I was going to do the load work up for his rifle but I only see him during hunting season and over one summer he had a guy load a couple hundred of them for him. He doesn’t practice by shooting paper, he just shoots pests throughout the year to confirm his zero or an occasional shot on a 350 yard gong. With how little he shoots they will probably last him the rest of his life.

 

[nagibson1]

I am definitely a believer that non-magnums are very sufficient at real life ranges. Also, Europeans have been using smaller calibers for a long time- 6.5 Swedes have killed o so many mooses. However, I tend to think our grandfather's had it right minus new bullet construction. The 25-30 caliber range is really good, and the 30-06 loaded moderately can get down to 16lbs of recoil. So the .270-7mm-30-06/308 are very ideal calibers for a one rifle hunter- which should be the goal for most.
Given new bullet construction, I think you can drop that a caliber. The 7mm will do what the 30 did. Thus, I tend to think that .25/6.5-30 cal is still a sweet spot. If I chose a rifle today it would be a .280ai.
HOWEVER, I was just hunting with one of the best western hunters I've ever heard of, and he is 100% a .243 guy. He also shot his 355 bull 4 times this year for it to expire, and he is a good shot.
My hunting partner this year shot his bull at 387 with his creedmore- about 140gr elds- and he spined it. The bullet didn't clear the spine, and there was no exit wound. The bullet retained about 60% of it's weight. He's also a very good shot- has taken coues deer @ 500+.
I have also shot whitetails with premium bullets in .243 and just not gotten exit wounds if the shot wasn't pure broadside. I just don't trust sub .25, under 120gr bullets to handle whatever shot angle I put them up to.
Thus, I'm a moderate. I want the largest caliber that truly has no effect on my accuracy- minus denial. for me that's about 17lbs if I shoot a lot in a 7.5lb gun with a good recoil pad. So I still hunt a 30-06 shooting 150-165's at 2800ish speeds. That puts recoil right around 19 with the 165's and right at 16.5 with the 150's. I'd be glad to move down to 7mm if it cost nothing, in order to get the higher SD (.280ai or 7mm-08). Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards. A moderate load in 270 is very shootable for teenage kids, and the bullet and powder cost is not really different. So I'm not interested in seeing how small I can go. 6.5 is a temptation, but not smaller than that for me.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards.

How much energy does that take?

 

[z987k]

How much energy does that take?

Depends if you like them medium or medium rare.

 

[Don Fischer]

I am definitely a believer that non-magnums are very sufficient at real life ranges. Also, Europeans have been using smaller calibers for a long time- 6.5 Swedes have killed o so many mooses. However, I tend to think our grandfather's had it right minus new bullet construction. The 25-30 caliber range is really good, and the 30-06 loaded moderately can get down to 16lbs of recoil. So the .270-7mm-30-06/308 are very ideal calibers for a one rifle hunter- which should be the goal for most.
Given new bullet construction, I think you can drop that a caliber. The 7mm will do what the 30 did. Thus, I tend to think that .25/6.5-30 cal is still a sweet spot. If I chose a rifle today it would be a .280ai.
HOWEVER, I was just hunting with one of the best western hunters I've ever heard of, and he is 100% a .243 guy. He also shot his 355 bull 4 times this year for it to expire, and he is a good shot.
My hunting partner this year shot his bull at 387 with his creedmore- about 140gr elds- and he spined it. The bullet didn't clear the spine, and there was no exit wound. The bullet retained about 60% of it's weight. He's also a very good shot- has taken coues deer @ 500+.
I have also shot whitetails with premium bullets in .243 and just not gotten exit wounds if the shot wasn't pure broadside. I just don't trust sub .25, under 120gr bullets to handle whatever shot angle I put them up to.
Thus, I'm a moderate. I want the largest caliber that truly has no effect on my accuracy- minus denial. for me that's about 17lbs if I shoot a lot in a 7.5lb gun with a good recoil pad. So I still hunt a 30-06 shooting 150-165's at 2800ish speeds. That puts recoil right around 19 with the 165's and right at 16.5 with the 150's. I'd be glad to move down to 7mm if it cost nothing, in order to get the higher SD (.280ai or 7mm-08). Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards. A moderate load in 270 is very shootable for teenage kids, and the bullet and powder cost is not really different. So I'm not interested in seeing how small I can go. 6.5 is a temptation, but not smaller than that for me.

Great post. Wish I had made it.

 

[AkRyan]

I am definitely a believer that non-magnums are very sufficient at real life ranges. Also, Europeans have been using smaller calibers for a long time- 6.5 Swedes have killed o so many mooses. However, I tend to think our grandfather's had it right minus new bullet construction. The 25-30 caliber range is really good, and the 30-06 loaded moderately can get down to 16lbs of recoil. So the .270-7mm-30-06/308 are very ideal calibers for a one rifle hunter- which should be the goal for most.
Given new bullet construction, I think you can drop that a caliber. The 7mm will do what the 30 did. Thus, I tend to think that .25/6.5-30 cal is still a sweet spot. If I chose a rifle today it would be a .280ai.
HOWEVER, I was just hunting with one of the best western hunters I've ever heard of, and he is 100% a .243 guy. He also shot his 355 bull 4 times this year for it to expire, and he is a good shot.
My hunting partner this year shot his bull at 387 with his creedmore- about 140gr elds- and he spined it. The bullet didn't clear the spine, and there was no exit wound. The bullet retained about 60% of it's weight. He's also a very good shot- has taken coues deer @ 500+.
I have also shot whitetails with premium bullets in .243 and just not gotten exit wounds if the shot wasn't pure broadside. I just don't trust sub .25, under 120gr bullets to handle whatever shot angle I put them up to.
Thus, I'm a moderate. I want the largest caliber that truly has no effect on my accuracy- minus denial. for me that's about 17lbs if I shoot a lot in a 7.5lb gun with a good recoil pad. So I still hunt a 30-06 shooting 150-165's at 2800ish speeds. That puts recoil right around 19 with the 165's and right at 16.5 with the 150's. I'd be glad to move down to 7mm if it cost nothing, in order to get the higher SD (.280ai or 7mm-08). Even the 270 has enough energy to kill an elk handily @ 750 yards. A moderate load in 270 is very shootable for teenage kids, and the bullet and powder cost is not really different. So I'm not interested in seeing how small I can go. 6.5 is a temptation, but not smaller than that for me.

Great post! If every shot was broad side a .223 would work perfectly 100% of the time.
I'm not sure how any human can argue any point you made in this post.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Great post! If every shot was broad side a .223 would work perfectly 100% of the time.
I'm not sure how any human can argue any point you made in this post.

Out of curiosity, what specific shot would you NOT take with a 77tmk 223, but WOULD take with a 130 Corelokt 270?

 

[AkRyan]

Out of curiosity, what specific shot would you NOT take with a 77tmk 222, but WOULD take with a 130 Corelokt 270?

Just out of curiosity how many animals have you killed with both of those calibers?

 

[mt terry d]

Great post! If every shot was broad side a .223 would work perfectly 100% of the time.

What rifle caliber won't work on broadside shots 100% of the time?

One you miss with.

Accuracy/shot placement matters.

 

[JM151]

I shot 2 deer this season with a Berger 215 and I have to say I will never use this bullet on whitetail again. It’s just too destructive. The second picture only holding the shoulder/leg was a tiny piece of skin otherwise it would have blown the shoulder/leg completely off……this is just a little excessive. If they were trophy animals I would have lost my mount. I would keep the 215 for elk or up

 

[Harvey_NW]

I'm not sure how any human can argue any point you made in this post.

Right! It would be different if there was a specific thread on 22 cal kills with 9k responses, including thousands of necropsy photos from deer, elk, moose, and bear, + others.

Oh wait..

 

[wyosam]

Right! It would be different if there was a specific thread on 22 cal kills with 9k responses, including thousands of necropsy photos from deer, elk, moose, and bear, + others.

Oh wait..

It’s a cartridge debate, which means it is an argument over how to skin a cat, and the number of ways to skin that cat is roughly equal to the number of cartridges there are x the number of bullet types that can be stuffed into those cartridges. Generally speaking, all work.


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[KHntr]

The only thing that matters are bullets, bullets, and bullets, in roughly that order.

 

[KHntr]

88 ELD m, intentional shoulder crush ala 223AI.

 

[KHntr]

88 ELD m, NOT broadside, intentional shoulder crush ala 223AI

 

[KHntr]

88 ELD m ala 223AI at 352 yards, square on.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

@KHntr heck yeah! Would you happen to have approximate impact velocities and more detailed photos of damage?

 

[Don Fischer]

The only thing that matters are bullets, bullets, and bullets, in roughly that order.

I don't buy that for one sec. What it is, is shot placement and the ability to make that shot. Without a doubt distruction has a lot to do with it but, there can be to much and to little for the shot taken. Give me a 22 short and I can feed my family deer all year. Give me a 338 mag and probably can't do the same with rabbits. Difference iss the ability of the shooter to place the shot. This of course would change depending on the shooter's. I had a 338 mag and had to shoot a lot, a whole lot, just to be fairly good. As a result I didn't hunt with it much! Had a 7x57 at the same time and hunted with it a lot! Every bullet has the ability to kill pretty much anything if it is properly placed. And properly placed depends on weather or not the user can actually shoot the rifle! I think more than we know bullet's get a bad rap for bad shooting.