What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[FredH]

Are you ever going to stop repeating this nonsense?

So a 250 grain Nosler Partition out of a 35 Whelen has absolutely nothing on a 223 using relatively soft hunting/match style bullets? Personally I feel that for most of us a 7-08 running good bullets weighing 120-140 grains at the same velocities or higher than a 223 can push the 77 gr. TMK is at a minimum going to do as well and on average outperform it every time. Looking further into it the 22 ARC pushing the same bullets as the 223 might be a better choice than the 223. I am not saying the 77 TMK isn't of value at the speeds the 223 is capable of I just don't see it as smashingly better than a lot of other mild kicking rifles.

 

[FredH]

Of course it would be a last resort! But it would work. Your point that heavier bullets give better shot angles is well taken. Think I mentioned that! Also mentioned larger caliber give better bullet options. And well aware that smaller calibers with lighter bullet's are easier to shoot well with less recoil.

Maybe so but for me anyway heavy loads from a 7MM RM or a 30-06 do not effect my ability to place bullets in the right place.

 

[goalie]

The whole "stop liking what I don't like" stuff never fails to amuse me.

It's pretty hard to argue that you can't effectively kill with a .223/5.56. If you don't like it, or feel comfortable doing it, don't.

And I say that as someone who shot his buck this year with a 45/70.........

 

[KHntr]

Yeah KHntr, with an 88gr bullet and AI capacity increase, it seems like that would perform as well as a .243 in 2002 at least. Were these three all 1 shot kills? And did the shots produce a bleeding exit wound? I would love to feel confident shooting a lower caliber with all it's benefits and efficiencies. I have just been feeling like "lowest" for me would be 6.5ish- .260/7-08 or the like.
But as I'm trying to lengthen my effective range, I want something that can grow with me. I'm out to 430 in ideal circumstances, but I'd like to get to 550 eventually. That's why I've stuck with the 30-06 or considered 280ai or 6.5prc as the "lowest" I could go.
For years I've sought to be a .243 for deer and 30-06 for elk guy, and my kids learn on reduced loads in .243 and .270 after they learn the basics in 22lr and an AR platform .223. I'd really like to get down to one gun. even one load.

The AI capacity increase is negligible. Just looks cooler and reduces case trimming.

For me the shooting is the fun part, and follow up with a 223 is FAST when the crosshairs don’t leave the animal when you rack a second round.
Two moose were immediately down at the shot (the little bulls) and the big bull managed three hops and took a second one as he was falling over sideways. In retrospect I should’ve let him just fall over, but I don’t have any will power when stuff is still upright after the first round is sent, no matter the cartridge.

Not sure that a “bleeding exit wound” is necessary when stuff dies within single digit yardages?

Regardless of that, I’ve shot several pickup loads of elk and moose with 300wm, 264wm, 280AI, 7wsm, and 300 Ultra, using predominantly TSX/TTSX/bonded premiums, and had very very few bleeding exit wounds. And to be honest, not a ton of exits period. If I can’t count on getting an exit from a 180/200 gr mono at 3000+ fps, then what difference does it make in the real world? I would MUCH rather have that animal dead from a massive internal wound cavity within a few seconds, versus walking up to one that needs a finisher because I shot him with a premium bonded or mono that created a smaller wound in his lungs.

And I’m a dedicated shoulder puncher, regardless of angle, regardless of whether it’s an 88gr ELD m or 200 gr TSX.

Fun fact, none of the critters I’ve shot with an ELD m or Amax have needed a finisher when I walked up to them. A lot of critters shot with harder bullets were still gasping their last when I got there.

I’ve caught way too many TSX/TTSX to ever concern myself with an exit on anything anymore, other than the exit the bullet makes in the rib cage on its way to the offside shoulder.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Form, whatever you say. It's easier to shoot smaller cartridges over and over and repeatedly, but the way you say it, it's like it's all or none. That somehow a hundred years of success shooting larger cartridges is null and void. I don't subscribe to that. Calling something nonsense is dismissive when there's more to it than all one way or all the other.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, whatever you say.

What angle do you believe can not be taken effectively with .224 and .243 good bullets?

There is a difference between stupidity and ignorance. I do not believe you are stupid, however you do seem to desire willfull ignorance. There are two very large threads that show any angle you can think of with extremely effective outcomes and massive destruction with smaller caliber projectiles on the largest animals on this continent- why don’t you read and learn so that you aren’t continually repeating non-factual statements?

It is completely logical I say “I like the 35 Whelen”. It is completely illogical and purposefully misfactual to state that smaller calibers limit shot angels- with zero personal experience using them, and in-spit of MASSIVE evidence to the contrary.


Exit elk scapula after going through onside scapula, ribs, lungs, ribs- also exited the elk.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I'm open to learning. Going in behind the ribs, diagonally through an elk exiting in front of/through an offside shoulder is a shot the smaller bullets can accomplish readily?

 

[35WhelenAI]

I'm open to learning. Going in behind the ribs, diagonally through an elk exiting in front of/through an offside shoulder is a shot the smaller bullets can accomplish readily?

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm open to learning. Going in behind the ribs, diagonally through an elk exiting in front of/through an offside shoulder is a shot the smaller bullets can accomplish readily?

Yes- proven hundreds of times in the threads you won’t read, and shown in the picture above going through both “shoulders”.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Yes sometimes old habits die hard. I'm seeing there's more than one way to skin the elk.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Form.....I see Bryce Townsley has, and now editor in chief J. Scott Omstead are calling you .223 for large game and long range small caliber hunting guys out.....publicly, in American Hunter magazine (NRA). Not you specifically, but the concept you are pushing(perhaps he knows of the RS 223 pages). Page 8 of the December issue. Me personally, I don't care a lot about what others shoot but I certainly won't be doing it since I can handle the cartridges that I shoot. I just find it interesting, with the wider viewpoint on the concept, outside of RS. Seems you have an excellent opportunity to set them right, like you attempt to do here. Somehow, I don't think you will exercise it.

 

[Spoonbill]

Form.....I see Bryce Townsley has, and now editor in chief J. Scott Omstead are calling you .223 for large game and long range small caliber hunting guys out.....publicly, in American Hunter magazine (NRA). Not you specifically, but the concept you are pushing(perhaps he knows of the RS 223 pages). Page 8 of the December issue. Me personally, I don't care a lot about what others shoot but I certainly won't be doing it since I can handle the cartridges that I shoot. I just find it interesting, with the wider viewpoint on the concept, outside of RS. Seems you have an excellent opportunity to set them right, like you attempt to do here. Somehow, I don't think you will exercise it.

Do you have a link to the article?

 

[35WhelenAI]

This is going to be interesting.

 

[ElPollo]

Form.....I see Bryce Townsley has, and now editor in chief J. Scott Omstead are calling you .223 for large game and long range small caliber hunting guys out.....publicly, in American Hunter magazine (NRA). Not you specifically, but the concept you are pushing(perhaps he knows of the RS 223 pages). Page 8 of the December issue. Me personally, I don't care a lot about what others shoot but I certainly won't be doing it since I can handle the cartridges that I shoot. I just find it interesting, with the wider viewpoint on the concept, outside of RS. Seems you have an excellent opportunity to set them right, like you attempt to do here. Somehow, I don't think you will exercise it.

Isn’t calling someone out publicly in a magazine these days sort of like trying to use a plastic straw for a bullhorn? I can’t remember the last time I bought or read a magazine about anything. Gotta be a decade or more.

 

[pacoalcracker]

spoonbill, I just got my copy of the AH magazine earlier today and was reading it tonight. I am not an electronic magazine subscriber, only the hard magazine copy. I'm sure someone can find it. Page 8 under the E.I.C. "saysme" column.

Bryce had an article "Long Range Values" in a previous AH magazine issue....can't remember which one but a recent one. But it's also in Decembers issue on page 8.

 

[woods89]

Since we all generally look to American Hunter for our hard hitting science based terminal info?

I've always felt they were one of the worst "I was invited to ****ranch in Texas by (insert company name here) to test the new ******.

Not exactly confidence inspiring when it comes to unbiased outdoor testing.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Elpollo...millions of NRA members get AH magazine...and read it. Sorry if you cannot see the benefits to reading, and more importantly, backing those that protect your freedoms to shoot and hunt. It's your loss to contend with. I read every single day......it's part of retaining intelligence.

 

[pacoalcracker]

woods89...here is your chance to be the hero and set them right...but you won't.

 

[woods89]

woods89...here is your chance to be the hero and set them right...but you won't.

I've posted all my kills in the last 3 years in the 223 and 6.5 threads. Those, as well as the 6mm thread, have massive amounts of terminal data.

Outside of that, I'm not interested in setting them straight. The info is there........

Not trying to be a jerk, and I probably shouldn't have said anything, but nothing American Hunter or any number of magazines writes is going to change my results.

 

[Spoonbill]

spoonbill, I just got my copy of the AH magazine earlier today and was reading it tonight. I am not an electronic magazine subscriber, only the hard magazine copy. I'm sure someone can find it. Page 8 under the E.I.C. "saysme" column.

Bryce had an article "Long Range Values" in a previous AH magazine issue....can't remember which one but a recent one. But it's also in Decembers issue on page 8.

I checked the website and found some articles discussing the 223 as a great choice for a deer round, newest one is a few months old so wasn’t sure if I searched wrong(highly likely) or if it was just in print. I bet it hits the website in a month or two, should be an interesting read.
I know some of those writers like Bryce Towsley are fans of the 338 and up so I am interested to read what he says.