What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Big_wals]

I know a guy that started hunting with a .22-250 using 52gr HP after shoulder surgery.

Did it kill deer? Yes. Did we find all of them? No, with no visible reaction to the shot and no blood trail several were not found until days or weeks later as they traveled 100 to 200 yards after they were hit with no way to track them.

No visible reaction? As in, they completely ignored the shot and kept on feeding or whatever they were previously doin?

 

[ORJoe]

The only thing that makes smaller calibers relevant is bullet selection. Not just any bullet will work. It's specific, and without it, the small calibers, well...

Would you go big game hunting with this?
Why or why not?

The answer is no, and it's because on some level, even if it's subliminal, you know that bullet selection matters for everything.
The reason you gloss over bullet selection for the big cartridges is that when you look at the shelf at Cabelas, every box has a picture of an elk on it.

 

[sveltri]

Would you go big game hunting with this?
Why or why not?

The answer is no, and it's because on some level, even if it's subliminal, you know that bullet selection matters for everything.
The reason you gloss over bullet selection for the big cartridges is that when you look at the shelf at Cabelas, every box has a picture of an elk on it.

Seems like plenty of "energy"!!!

 

[roadrunner]

I don’t think it’s us that are wound a bit tight

As quick as you were to respond and defend the collective says otherwise....

You guys are funny.

 

[CMP70306]

I have a friend that has killed at least 30-40 deer over the last several years with a 22-250 and 53 grain Berger varmint bullets that has recovered every one of them. Maybe my buddy is a better shot??

No visible reaction? As in, they completely ignored the shot and kept on feeding or whatever they were previously doin?

The ones that were recovered or still intact enough to tell where they were hit were all in the chest/lung area. Lots of damage internally but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards. The one drive he shot 4 times and thought he only killed 2, turns out all 4 were kill shots but the one that dropped within 50 he hit twice, the second one ran 150 yards to where my brother watched it die. The third we found the next day 200 yards in the other direction when someone kicked up some buzzards on another drive.

The big issue is during deer drives when they are hyped up on adrenaline it doesn’t seem to shock them like the larger bullets do and many times they show no indication of a hit continuing to run tail up and uphill with the rest of the group. This makes it difficult to try and track the fatally wounded one out of the group with no blood trail. If he shot one just meandering that wasn’t running or agitated they would either drop or buck and do that dead run dropping within sight so it worked fine for that.

Same issue I had shooting light weight monos out of the 6.5 PRC, I got a ton of damage and they would drop when just shot walking through the woods. However if they were shot during a drive they would carry it for quite a while until they died. The below buck was hit with an 109gr bullet at 3300+ fps and ran around 200 yards before he died, I found him because he didn’t come out the other side of a tree line so I figured he dropped in there. The bloodshot is on the entrance side.

 

[roadrunner]

It always amazes me that kids and women have been killing animals for decades with .22 and .24 caliber chamberings but somehow it won't work for grown men.

Yeah. I kinda said that in my original post above, but some didn't catch that...

 

[Big_wals]

It always amazes me that kids and women have been killing animals for decades with .22 and .24 caliber chamberings but somehow it won't work for grown men.

That’s what made me buy a .243 several years ago. I realized that gun writers will have an article one month about needing a 180 grain .30 cal minimum for elk, and then the very next month might have a write up about what a great cartridge the .243 is for a youth rifle, hunting the same species. Didn’t really add up.

 

[Big_wals]

The ones that were recovered or still intact enough to tell where they were hit were all in the chest/lung area. Lots of damage internally but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards. The one drive he shot 4 times and thought he only killed 2, turns out all 4 were kill shots but the one that dropped within 50 he hit twice, the second one ran 150 yards to where my brother watched it die. The third we found the next day 200 yards in the other direction when someone kicked up some buzzards on another drive.

The big issue is during deer drives when they are hyped up on adrenaline it doesn’t seem to shock them like the larger bullets do and many times they show no indication of a hit continuing to run tail up and uphill with the rest of the group. This makes it difficult to try and track the fatally wounded one out of the group with no blood trail. If he shot one just meandering that wasn’t running or agitated they would either drop or buck and do that dead run dropping within sight so it worked fine for that.

Same issue I had shooting light weight monos out of the 6.5 PRC, I got a ton of damage and they would drop when just shot walking through the woods. However if they were shot during a drive they would carry it for quite a while until they died. The below buck was hit with an 109gr bullet at 3300+ fps and ran around 200 yards before he died, I found him because he didn’t come out the other side of a tree line so I figured he dropped in there. The bloodshot is on the entrance side.

View attachment 750708

Ah, didn’t realize you were talking about deer drives.

 

[roadrunner]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

You didn't answer my question. If the 55 gr SP was adequate then, that has now gained 30 more years in age from " in use 40 years", why all the Renaissance excitement for the 77 gr TMK?

If the 55 gr SP has killed so many big game animals, why aren't the "awakened" using it still instead of the TMK? I've read their posts. I know what they've said.

The purpose to this thread is what changed to cause the small caliber revival. So, what caused it? Since the .224 55 gr SP has been so widely used and all...

 

[wind gypsy]

why does the 22 UM exist?

A good question on its own..

 

[Big_wals]

You didn't answer my question. If the 55 gr SP was adequate then, that has now gained 30 more years in age from " in use 40 years", why all the Renaissance excitement for the 77 gr TMK?

A 55 gr soft is still adequate, but a 77 tmk is optimal. I loaded some hornady 55 SPs last winter out of curiosity, shot around a dozen hogs with em. They work great, you just dont have the range you get with a higher bc tmk or eldm.

 

[ORJoe]

The purpose to this thread is what changed to cause the small caliber revival. So, what caused it?

Probably all the pictures.
And the internet being used to spread the specific point that yes, an elk might weigh 900 lbs more than a deer, but the bullet doesn't process the entire 1100 lbs. It just pokes a hole in the living parts and gravity does the rest.

 

[roadrunner]

When someone has to jump to accusing anyone they disagree with of hurt feelings, well that is a pretty sure sign they are not worth the adenosine triphosphate needed to type a reply.

I appreciated reading your reply anyway, and the great reminder that small is not actually new.

Go back and read posts #1622 and #1623.

Nowhere was it said that small calibers were a new thing and nowhere was it said that small calibers weren't effective, but someone sure had to argue about it, and then we'll begin....

 

[roadrunner]

Probably all the pictures.
And the internet being used to spread the specific point that yes, an elk might weigh 900 lbs more than a deer, but the bullet doesn't process the entire 1100 lbs. It just pokes a hole in the living parts and gravity does the rest.

No it doesn't, it just has to make it beyond the thick winter coat entangled with dried mud or dirt, muscle and bone and carry onward into the chest cavity while expanding to dissipate that energy through fragmenting into those living parts to cause lethal damage.

But the design of the bullet to do that doesn't matter as I've learned...

 

[RockAndSage]

You didn't answer my question. If the 55 gr SP was adequate then, that has now gained 30 more years in age from " in use 40 years", why all the Renaissance excitement for the 77 gr TMK?

If the 55 gr SP has killed so many big game animals, why aren't the "awakened" using it still instead of the TMK? I've read their posts. I know what they've said.

The purpose to this thread is what changed to cause the small caliber revival. So, what caused it? Since the .224 55 gr SP has been so widely used and all...

Asked and answered:

What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

Guess again. Infinity!! Thanks for bringing back memories from when I was 6 years old, I enjoyed reminiscing. 😀

rokslide.com

 

[roadrunner]

Asked and answered:

What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

Guess again. Infinity!! Thanks for bringing back memories from when I was 6 years old, I enjoyed reminiscing. 😀

rokslide.com

So, bullet design does matter. Otherwise, small calibers are, well...what they've always been. Adequate yet limited as emerging technologies allow for more, many by their own admission in posts on the 77 gr TMK.

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As far as the probably more animals killed with a .224 caliber comment earlier, the 30 cal has "probably" done more. Not talking the magnums or '06 either...

 

[Marbles]

Go back and read posts #1622 and #1623.

Nowhere was it said that small calibers were a new thing and nowhere was it said that small calibers weren't effective, but someone sure had to argue about it, and then we'll begin....

Go back and read the post you quoted again, nowhere did it state the posts you reference said small was new. The post was specifically not directed at you, so you should not assume you are the subject of everything in it, particularly when there is a paragraph break and the pieces don't fit.

Of course main character syndrome can be difficult to avoid, particularly in today's society.

 

[Big_wals]

So, bullet design does matter. Otherwise, small calibers are, well...what they've always been. Adequate yet limited as emerging technologies allow for more, many by their own admission in posts on the 77 gr TMK.

--‐---‐--------------------------------------------------

As far as the probably more animals killed with a .224 caliber comment earlier, the 30 cal has "probably" done more. Not talking the magnums or '06 either...

Nobody advocating for smaller calibers has said that bullet design doesn’t matter. The exact opposite is what’s being taught, the very first line in the first post of the 223 thread say “bullets matter more than headstamps”, and then there is a several hundred page thread proving it.

 

[Big_wals]

The only thing that makes smaller calibers relevant is bullet selection. Not just any bullet will work. It's specific, and without it, the small calibers, well...

Whats your point? Even if the 77 tmk was literally the only .224 bullet that would kill big game, everything else “grenaded” on a deers scapula, who cares? Why do you care that a specic bullet works so well?

 

[pathnz]

You didn't answer my question. If the 55 gr SP was adequate then, that has now gained 30 more years in age from " in use 40 years", why all the Renaissance excitement for the 77 gr TMK?

If the 55 gr SP has killed so many big game animals, why aren't the "awakened" using it still instead of the TMK? I've read their posts. I know what they've said.

The purpose to this thread is what changed to cause the small caliber revival. So, what caused it? Since the .224 55 gr SP has been so widely used and all...

.223s with 55gr soft points have been the most widely used round by professional hunters for animal management and commercial meat hunting since the early 1970s in NZ. Commercial harvest numbers are at least 1.6 million deer since 1970. A high percentage of these deer are head or neck shot for minimal meat damage when commercial meat hunting, however the rest are shot through the shoulder/lungs. It works. It is however limited in range and hit probability falls off pretty quickly. The heavy bullets are better.

All the professional hunters I work with still largely use .223s, although many are moving to heavier bullets e.g. 73gr ELDM as they're more effective - the same as the wider shooting world, their general knowledge is slowing improving.

The existence of heavy-for-calibre, aerodynamic, effective .224" bullets is not a new phenomenon either - the 75gr and 80gr Amax were around a long time ago. I was shooting the 75gr Amax with great results back as far as about 2009.