What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Reburn]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

Here in Texas everyone I know started their kids on 22-250. Even now. soft points or 64 gr power points were always standard fare.

 

[ElPollo]

The same guy in Flagstaff used to chuckle about his brother-in-law. He hunted his whole life with a 30/06 but always dreamed of owning a 300 Weatherby. The brother-in-law bought one when he retired, but never could shoot it and never killed anything cleanly after getting it. He would make his son sight it in for him before every season because it kicked too hard. I remember one season in about ‘98 or ‘99 the brother-in-law shot a big bull in the front leg and tracked it several miles to a gut pile next to a road.

Both of those fellas were great guys, but if I had to bet on one of them making meat it would always be my neighbor with the 22-250.

 

[Marbles]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

When someone has to jump to accusing anyone they disagree with of hurt feelings, well that is a pretty sure sign they are not worth the adenosine triphosphate needed to type a reply.

I appreciated reading your reply anyway, and the great reminder that small is not actually new.

 

[Castle Rock]

There's 2 that got their feeler's hurt.

I don’t think it’s us that are wound a bit tight

 

[HandgunHTR]

Here in Texas everyone I know started their kids on 22-250. Even now. soft points or 64 gr power points were always standard fare.

It always amazes me that kids and women have been killing animals for decades with .22 and .24 caliber chamberings but somehow it won't work for grown men.

 

[CMP70306]

My biggest thing is the dichotomy in the rhetoric, if the .223 is all you ever need for any game in North America and anything bigger causes increased recoil which degrades accuracy then why does the 22 UM exist?

 

[turbo406]

I'd be willing to bet the 220 swift and 22 250 shooting 55 sp's have a body count that would blow your mind if you started talking to old ranchers.

 

[RockAndSage]

My biggest thing is the dichotomy in the rhetoric, if the .223 is all you ever need for any game in North America and anything bigger causes increased recoil which degrades accuracy then why does the 22 UM exist?

Hit probability.

And greater distances, with higher hit probability.

Nobody's arguing that no cartridges except .223 are acceptable. The core argument is that .223 maximizes shootability, including just affording a higher volume of practice. The better the bullet out of a .223, the further out you can hit and still create lethal wounds. The 55gr soft points have been whacking big game for a very long time, but 77gr TMK extends the max lethal range. It also seems to penetrate better, with a better wound channel, based on all the evidence shared here.

That same bullet moving faster out of a bigger cartridge just enhances that advantage, until you reach a recoil tipping-point that's specific to each shooter.

 

[CMP70306]

I'd be willing to bet the 220 swift and 22 250 shooting 55 sp's have a body count that would blow your mind if you started talking to old ranchers.

I know a guy that started hunting with a .22-250 using 52gr HP after shoulder surgery.

Did it kill deer? Yes. Did we find all of them? No, with no visible reaction to the shot and no blood trail several were not found until days or weeks later as they traveled 100 to 200 yards after they were hit with no way to track them.

 

[Big_wals]

My biggest thing is the dichotomy in the rhetoric, if the .223 is all you ever need for any game in North America and anything bigger causes increased recoil which degrades accuracy then why does the 22 UM exist?

The 223 with good bullets has been proven time and again to be a reliable killer out to 400 to 450 yards. Most hunters will never shoot an animal at that range, and a lot won’t even get to 200. So yeah, for probably a solid 90% of hunters it is all that’s needed. Nobody has said it’s the only thing that works.

 

[Boarmaster]

As I got older and settled into the idea I was likely only going to ever hunt whitetails I just naturally migrated into smaller non magnum rifles as I bought additional rifles. With more experience under my belt I was better able to understand my needs. I got out of the mindset I needed to have 270 or 300 wby mag so “just in case “. Oh I still have all those bigger chambering in the safe but any purchases here on out for medium game will be 7mm08 on the bigger end. Its unlikely you will see me with a .223 but . I could dang sure kill deer with it. Thats my case based on my hunting.

 

[sveltri]

I know a guy that started hunting with a .22-250 using 52gr HP after shoulder surgery.

Did it kill deer? Yes. Did we find all of them? No, with no visible reaction to the shot and no blood trail several were not found until days or weeks later as they traveled 100 to 200 yards after they were hit with no way to track them.

I have a friend that has killed at least 30-40 deer over the last several years with a 22-250 and 53 grain Berger varmint bullets that has recovered every one of them. Maybe my buddy is a better shot??

 

[Big_wals]

I know a guy that started hunting with a .22-250 using 52gr HP after shoulder surgery.

Did it kill deer? Yes. Did we find all of them? No, with no visible reaction to the shot and no blood trail several were not found until days or weeks later as they traveled 100 to 200 yards after they were hit with no way to track them.

No visible reaction? As in, they completely ignored the shot and kept on feeding or whatever they were previously doin?

 

[ORJoe]

The only thing that makes smaller calibers relevant is bullet selection. Not just any bullet will work. It's specific, and without it, the small calibers, well...

Would you go big game hunting with this?
Why or why not?

The answer is no, and it's because on some level, even if it's subliminal, you know that bullet selection matters for everything.
The reason you gloss over bullet selection for the big cartridges is that when you look at the shelf at Cabelas, every box has a picture of an elk on it.

 

[sveltri]

Would you go big game hunting with this?
Why or why not?

The answer is no, and it's because on some level, even if it's subliminal, you know that bullet selection matters for everything.
The reason you gloss over bullet selection for the big cartridges is that when you look at the shelf at Cabelas, every box has a picture of an elk on it.

Seems like plenty of "energy"!!!

 

[roadrunner]

I don’t think it’s us that are wound a bit tight

As quick as you were to respond and defend the collective says otherwise....

You guys are funny.

 

[CMP70306]

I have a friend that has killed at least 30-40 deer over the last several years with a 22-250 and 53 grain Berger varmint bullets that has recovered every one of them. Maybe my buddy is a better shot??

No visible reaction? As in, they completely ignored the shot and kept on feeding or whatever they were previously doin?

The ones that were recovered or still intact enough to tell where they were hit were all in the chest/lung area. Lots of damage internally but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards. The one drive he shot 4 times and thought he only killed 2, turns out all 4 were kill shots but the one that dropped within 50 he hit twice, the second one ran 150 yards to where my brother watched it die. The third we found the next day 200 yards in the other direction when someone kicked up some buzzards on another drive.

The big issue is during deer drives when they are hyped up on adrenaline it doesn’t seem to shock them like the larger bullets do and many times they show no indication of a hit continuing to run tail up and uphill with the rest of the group. This makes it difficult to try and track the fatally wounded one out of the group with no blood trail. If he shot one just meandering that wasn’t running or agitated they would either drop or buck and do that dead run dropping within sight so it worked fine for that.

Same issue I had shooting light weight monos out of the 6.5 PRC, I got a ton of damage and they would drop when just shot walking through the woods. However if they were shot during a drive they would carry it for quite a while until they died. The below buck was hit with an 109gr bullet at 3300+ fps and ran around 200 yards before he died, I found him because he didn’t come out the other side of a tree line so I figured he dropped in there. The bloodshot is on the entrance side.

 

[roadrunner]

It always amazes me that kids and women have been killing animals for decades with .22 and .24 caliber chamberings but somehow it won't work for grown men.

Yeah. I kinda said that in my original post above, but some didn't catch that...

 

[Big_wals]

It always amazes me that kids and women have been killing animals for decades with .22 and .24 caliber chamberings but somehow it won't work for grown men.

That’s what made me buy a .243 several years ago. I realized that gun writers will have an article one month about needing a 180 grain .30 cal minimum for elk, and then the very next month might have a write up about what a great cartridge the .243 is for a youth rifle, hunting the same species. Didn’t really add up.

 

[Big_wals]

The ones that were recovered or still intact enough to tell where they were hit were all in the chest/lung area. Lots of damage internally but with one .22 cal hole in they don’t bleed and that makes them difficult to track if they make it more than 100 yards. The one drive he shot 4 times and thought he only killed 2, turns out all 4 were kill shots but the one that dropped within 50 he hit twice, the second one ran 150 yards to where my brother watched it die. The third we found the next day 200 yards in the other direction when someone kicked up some buzzards on another drive.

The big issue is during deer drives when they are hyped up on adrenaline it doesn’t seem to shock them like the larger bullets do and many times they show no indication of a hit continuing to run tail up and uphill with the rest of the group. This makes it difficult to try and track the fatally wounded one out of the group with no blood trail. If he shot one just meandering that wasn’t running or agitated they would either drop or buck and do that dead run dropping within sight so it worked fine for that.

Same issue I had shooting light weight monos out of the 6.5 PRC, I got a ton of damage and they would drop when just shot walking through the woods. However if they were shot during a drive they would carry it for quite a while until they died. The below buck was hit with an 109gr bullet at 3300+ fps and ran around 200 yards before he died, I found him because he didn’t come out the other side of a tree line so I figured he dropped in there. The bloodshot is on the entrance side.

View attachment 750708

Ah, didn’t realize you were talking about deer drives.