What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[mt100gr.]

Ok so for someone who is a legitimate novice and hasn’t shot enough to know any better…

When I started shooting I quickly found that I was fairly recoil sensitive. Fast forward a couple seasons and a significant amount of practice PLUS a suppressor.

I bought a Savage 300WSM Ultralite and honestly even without hearing pro on I don’t flinch when it goes off. The recoil doesn’t bother me. I have no question I could shoot 5x more rounds at the range with a suppressed 6CM, but I think I’m fairly GTG out to 400 yards.

Does all of this hoopla on Rokslide (which cartridge you shoot, which scope you use) matter all that much if you likely won’t shoot past 400-500 yards?

I'll say yes and no.

It's a lot more fun to shoot a lot (suppressed or not) with the smaller cartridges. And you will shoot a .223 more in practice than a 300 of any flavor.

In hunting situations I always remember the first year hunting suppressed with my daughter (my girls hunt with a .223) . She told me numerous times how much easier/more comfortable she was behind the rifle knowing that the suppressor was there.....confidence!

Translate that to you or me (I've run 1000+ rounds thru rem mags and win mags in the last few years and even more in .223 and various 6.5s) and any rifle that you shoot a lot and are very comfortable behind will do the work. Again, the smaller ones are just more fun at all ranges.

Most of my hunting in the last few years has been with a (couple of) 6.5 CMs, .223 or 6.5 SAUM because I shoot them the most and am 100% confident in them. The big 300s and 7mm's haven't shown me enough of an edge in performance to make them worth the extra blast/recoil at the range or in the field.

 

[Anschutz]

. When I want to spot my hit it’s because I need to do a wind correction for shot #2, not poor form. “Calling your shot” is based off your performance when the rifle went off and how you were aligned with the target, it doesn’t take into effect the error in a 10vs 5mph wind, or misreading the wind halfway to the target. Form has shown data from Wez that most misses are going to be from wind. That’s why I want to be able to spot my hit. And a higher caliber shot from an unusual field position is not shooting from a rifle line.

I've seen his WEZ post, and I'm fully aware that wind is the major factor. While I'm probably better than most at reading wind, for a match shooter, I suck at it past 400 yards or so. What I was saying about calling the shot is if I know range, have a good idea of the wind, adjust for both, and execute a good shot, I have a very high confidence that my bullet is going to end up in the vitals. I can also separate shooting from the line and shooting in the field. My hunting rifles only touch a bench for load development. I usually zero prone off of a bipod and practice offhand, sitting, prone off of a pack, and from shooting sticks. Unfortunately, my current hunting area only allows slugs and muzzleloaders for hunting during gun season, or I would 100% be using an AR with an LPVO for at least one tag just to see if it's for me. If it wasn't, my .45-70 or .375 Win lever rifles would come out, and I'd shoot cast bullets through the lungs.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[idahodave]

I’m all for a little hyperbole….but when folks start talking about the “thousands” of animals they’ve killed…the credibility starts to fade a bit.

If you’re a hunter that’s over 50 and a professional “meat” hunter in some capacity like kangaroos in Australia or something…ok, maybe.

Beyond that…I call bullchit. Want to make me eat my words?…post up some photos of your face with even a single “thousand“.

 

[NateTP38]

I’m all for a little hyperbole….but when folks start talking about the “thousands” of animals they’ve killed…the credibility starts to fade a bit.

If you’re a hunter that’s over 50 and a professional “meat” hunter in some capacity like kangaroos in Australia or something…ok, maybe.

Beyond that…I call bullchit. Want to make me eat my words?…post up some photos of your face with even a single “thousand“.

It's a little weird how obsessed some guys are with seeing another dude's picture on the internet. I bet Form could make A LOT of money from guys like this on Only Fans.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

It's a little weird how obsessed some guys are with seeing another dude's picture on the internet. I bet Form could make A LOT of money from guys like this on Only Fans.

It all comes back to what I posted several pages back. It's the most toxic yet pervasive "thing" in society today that people can not let go of or check.......ego.

I started to really listen to form's suggestions about two, or maybe even three years ago. I took the approach, "maybe this guy knows more than me, i should listen." I've asked the guy many questions and all he's ever done is answer them. Then I went out and tried what he suggested. I've only become a better shooter. And "peashooters" with match bullets kill the hell out of critters.

Mr. Avery has mentioned on the shoot2hunt podcast he kinda took the same path.

Open your mind and check your ego is all you have to do.

 

[JGRaider]

It's a far cry from ego from where I stand, and I don't give a rip what anyone hunts with. Fact is when someone posts contradictory "facts" to Formid, he starts his rants about posting pics to back up what you say. If it's good for him, it's good for everyone else, right?

I don't want pics, but if he's even close to 50 animals per year for a decade that's obviously 500 head, not "thousands, plural" of animals as he stated. Not even remotely close. Still not sure how a guy gets 20 elk tags every year either. He says " more than a hundred pics of dead animals on this board from me alone.".....once again a fraction of "thousands of animals I've killed, or seen killed beside me". Sorry, I'm calling BS on "thousands, plural".

 

[NateTP38]

It all comes back to what I posted several pages back. It's the most toxic yet pervasive "thing" in society today that people can not let go of or check.......ego.

I started to really listen to form's suggestions about two, or maybe even three years ago. I took the approach, "maybe this guy knows more than me, i should listen." I've asked the guy many questions and all he's ever done is answer them. Then I went out and tried what he suggested. I've only become a better shooter. And "peashooters" with match bullets kill the hell out of critters.

Mr. Avery has mentioned on the shoot2hunt podcast he kinda took the same path.

Open your mind and check your ego is all you have to do.

Ultimately I don't really care if Form is actually a crazy cat lady living in New Jersey and this is the biggest troll in the history of the internet. His suggestions and advice work for me, so I will continue to use and enjoy the .223.

 

[roosiebull]

@Formidilosus I agree with you and have learned far too much from you, so I have to be nitpicky to insure I think about what you say and don't just accept it "because."

I have to agree, having recently been one and still being one in the handgun realm.

This really is the crux, to stop any moderately sized animal in its tracks reliably you must disrupt the central nervous system or breakdown the entire body (300 tawmahawk with varmint rounds). I can pause an old sick persons pacemaker for 3 seconds to see their underlying rhythm and few of them pass out. A healthy adult human can likely maintain full function for 8 seconds after their last heart beat, particularly if they are already pissed as hell and flooded with catecholamines. I bet a pissed off, 900 pound brown can go for longer.


Well, it does depend on what pieces of brain we are talking about, frontal lobes are not all that important to maintain agressive function in the short term.






I keep a big wheel gun because, we all need a comfort blankie, don't we my precious.

Have you ever had a big coastal brown bear skull in your hands? (Like a beetled or boiled skull) there is nothing there that is going to stop a tmk, they are not that thick.

I would way rather have 5 shots with an AR than one with my s&w 500, and in an actual situation, you almost certainly aren’t getting more than one shot with a big wheel gun

5 tmk’s to the face, head, and neck (probably not super precision shooting in that situation) or one big narrow wound somewhere?

I love shooting big wheel guns, but I don’t think there is a single scenario in this country that I would rather pack one if my life depended on it.

 

[waldo9190]

In the book “the American rifle” there’s a chapter about how the USA wanted to switch to the .276 after ww1, the m1 grand was almost a .276. Tests showed that the hit percentage was higher and soldiers shot it better.

However, there was so much leftover 30-06 ammo that it didn’t make sense financially to scrap the 06 for the .276 pederson. Therefore the 30-06 just sort of became the American cartridge.

Thank Douglas McArthur for the 30 caliber obsession in the USA.

Can you imagine where we'd be at as a hunting community had we adopted the 6mm Lee Navy or something similar? Would have cut 100 years out if the chase to where were at now.

Edit to remove the dyslexia lol

 

[hereinaz]

Ultimately I don't really care if Form is actually a crazy cat lady living in New Jersey and this is the biggest troll in the history of the internet. His suggestions and advice work for me, so I will continue to use and enjoy the .223.

I want to see pictures of the cats.

 

[roosiebull]

I want to see pictures of the cats.

I’m good, cats are disgusting little creatures

 

[Mike D Texas]

It's a little weird how obsessed some guys are with seeing another dude's picture on the internet. I bet Form could make A LOT of money from guys like this on Only Fans.

On the other hand I think it a lot weird how many people blindly follow someone’s advice as the gospel without trying it out for themselves.

I have a least (2) scopes that allegedly failed “the test” by merely riding in a vehicle. Mine are still dead on zero after several years of riding in trucks, atvs and golf carts in rough rocky “roads”. If you’ve ever ridden off road in a lifted golf cart, rough is an understatement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[QuackAttack]

This community follows trends from competitive performance sports. You see it in the concept of wilderness athletes vs hunters. Rok is more wilderness athlete and competitive shooting than hunters hunting. That’s not good or bad, but it should filter opinions when you get advice from any forum. It’s super helpful on topics like boots, packs, optics…but it’s sometimes lacking on traditional experience based wisdom.

With the shift to smaller cartridges in PRS and similar…from 30 cal to 6.5 to 6 creed…and the wave of long range shooters who build rifles based on what their hero off instagram has on his barrel sticker…it was inevitable that you’d see more small cartridges with giant optics afield. This brings a suite of assumptions and issues with it as it tries to translate from manicured ranges to saddle scabbards. Things like the assumption that you can simply range, dial, and get hits at 800m…it’s easy…except not in the real world under field conditions with a heart rate upwards of 100bpm and 80+ breaths After running/climbing to get into a shooting position.

There is also an issue with defining performance on game. What does “good” mean?

When you look at professional groups that define ballistics in quantified ways, it makes things much simpler. You can read about the highlights on pistol ammo performance here: https://www.pewpewtactical.com/fbi-ammo-test-protocol/

The basis is that you need consistent, predictable, terminal performance in a bullet that you can reliably deliver to the target with sufficient retained energy to penetrate the vital area in a relatively straight line and optimally give an exit wound to amplify blood loss/air in to create tension pneumothorax and hasten death.

What cartridges and projectiles are optimal for that task has filled books for decades.

Generally, my view is this- match the tool to the task based on a sub optimal shot. I’ve seen deer killed with 22lr. That’s not a good plan, though. Plan to take a shot through bone, through grass filled paunch, at distance (where your velocity has dropped to a point where bullet expansion windows matter), and be able to do so quickl…without your Kestrel.


A poor performing bullet will still kill effectively on a standing broadside shot. That same bullet will lose its core and fail to punch through grass filled paunch on a quartering away moose. This is why you need a specific # of inches of penetration in calibrated gel (not that gel exactly matches tissue). In selecting a bullet, you need to know the anatomy of your target and how many inches of penetration are required to get full penetration from all angles, what velocity window will guarantee that performance, and when you can’t take the shot.

Frame of reference is a real issue in bias on this topic. Guys who primarily hunt deer have seen how fragile a deer can be…you could kill it easily with most centerfire cartridges. At the opposite end, guys who chase Cape Buffalo, with their armored rib cage and overlapping ribs will swear 375 with 300gr bonded bullets are minimal.

Somewhere in the middle is likely where most NA game animals live.

Don‘t take anyone’s advice. Do your anatomical math. Define your performance requirements. At what distance, to what accuracy and precision standard, then terminal performance-inches of straight line penetration, weight retention, bone blind, exit wound required, velocity/expansion window vs range.

 

[Anschutz]

On the other hand I think it a lot weird how many people blindly follow someone’s advice as the gospel without trying it out for themselves.

I have a least (2) scopes that allegedly failed “the test” by merely riding in a vehicle. Mine are still dead on zero after several years of riding in trucks, atvs and golf carts in rough rocky “roads”. If you’ve ever ridden off road in a lifted golf cart, rough is an understatement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

This is so true. Game has been lost due to wounding with every rifle cartridge in every reloading manual and game has been taken with every rifle cartridge in every reloading manual with every bullet in every reloading manual. Warranties have been used on every optic from Barska to Tangent Theta. Every rifle from Mossberg to Seekins has a rifle make it to the consumer that came back for one issue or another. The same can be said for almost everything we use in hunting or our daily lives.

I say, if you like using what you are using, and are doing so successfully, enjoy. Whether that's a .10 Eichelberger for Grizzlies or a 4 Bore for Cottontails, you do you. I'll continue to use what I use but I'll be here to thumbs up your success in the field.

 

[id_jon]

On the other hand I think it a lot weird how many people blindly follow someone’s advice as the gospel without trying it out for themselves.

I have a least (2) scopes that allegedly failed “the test” by merely riding in a vehicle. Mine are still dead on zero after several years of riding in trucks, atvs and golf carts in rough rocky “roads”. If you’ve ever ridden off road in a lifted golf cart, rough is an understatement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

The point of all the success threads is that people ARE trying it themselves and having results similar or identical to what was predicted.

 

[NateTP38]

On the other hand I think it a lot weird how many people blindly follow someone’s advice as the gospel without trying it out for themselves.

I have a least (2) scopes that allegedly failed “the test” by merely riding in a vehicle. Mine are still dead on zero after several years of riding in trucks, atvs and golf carts in rough rocky “roads”. If you’ve ever ridden off road in a lifted golf cart, rough is an understatement.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

The thing is, I did try for myself. I have a sample size of one (1) Leopold that lost zero from riding in a truck for two hours on maintained gravel roads - a situation that is a lot less rough than riding in a lifted golf cart (I have actually done that, as well, albeit without any rifles on board). My three (3) SWFAs have been rock solid so far with more abuse than the Leupold ever received.

Same story with cartridge/caliber. I had poor experiences with .308s and a .35 Whelen with "deep penetrating" bullets. Much better experiences with smaller calibers and fragmenting bullets. Again, still very small sample sizes.

Like I said before, at this point I don't care if Form is completely lying about all of his experiences and credentials. My practical experiences - as limited as they may be - match what he is saying.

 

[Spoonbill]

I’m all for a little hyperbole….but when folks start talking about the “thousands” of animals they’ve killed…the credibility starts to fade a bit.

If you’re a hunter that’s over 50 and a professional “meat” hunter in some capacity like kangaroos in Australia or something…ok, maybe.

Beyond that…I call bullchit. Want to make me eat my words?…post up some photos of your face with even a single “thousand“.

Is not impossible if you live or know landowners in the southeast.
If I go to my family’s place in the south, I can legally shoot 3 does a day, which if I did every day for the entire season would be north of 220 does. Since CWD is in the area, depredation permits are easier to comeby, I could shoot as many deer as I want. If I hustled and made a couple phone calls, shooting north of 100 deer in a year would be easily doable.

With that being said and to get this thread on track. My reasoning for shifting to smaller calibers was after seeing how animals died just as quickly with a 270 130gr gameking as they did with my 30-06 or my buddies 300 and 338 magnums. Ironically 2 friends who think you need 338 mags for elk have no problem using their 243s for deer and antelope. Now that I have gotten a 223 and a 243, I problaby won’t hunt with my 06 as much if at all.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

1) I’m also here for the cats.

2) You guys challenging the number of kills a guy posts and needing someone’s identity, what exactly are you trying to prove? Seriously? What do you actually expect? How in the hell does 1000 kill shots do ANYTHING useful when posted to the open web, let alone someone’s mug? Does the employment of smaller cartridges become suddenly invalidated if 779 photos are amasssed? I’m trying to picture cull hunts with piles of does, as if anyone doing it daily would focus on photographing it. No thanks. Contribute to the actual topic or start your own thread, we’re all good here.

 

[fwafwow]

 

[hereinaz]

I don’t think anyone has been persuaded by Form claiming he has killed thousands of animals. I completely ignore or discount heavily that. I want to see it or experience it.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Seems to me the evidence for shift is the many pictures on the .223 thread and discussion. Look at the .223 thread where people talk about the years of pictures that are converting them.

Ultimately, two basic reasons for the switch are:

1) Self evident reduced recoil and all the benefits.
2) Pictures showing small caliber TMK, ELDm, Berger Hunting bullets producing massive carnage.

The PRS is a whipping boy for everybody on all sides. For all the justified complaints (and I have some) it has advanced precision rifle and pushed it into hunting, competition, and tactical areas.