What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[wyosam]

What bothers me is all of the “I had a bad experience” is anecdotal.

And, the vast majority of the “failures” in the anecdotes aren’t recovered so how do we know they aren’t #1 or #2 problems leading to #4?

Why does it have to be #3 bullet failure? Look at the pictures and evidence.

So, what is the stronger body of evidence?

If you don’t believe our stories with pictures and video, why should we believe yours without? Seeing is believing.

That is why there is a Rokslide trend, people are posting pics here.

I love the absolute carnage of my Bergers because I get a couple more inches of penetration than the ELDm and TMK. Hard to believe those words.

This pic says more than I ever could about what happened inside this animal before the bullet exited with a bit of the inside on the outside.

View attachment 636105

I only mentioned bullet failure as an excuse people use when their “well hit” animal runs off and dies without being found. The reality is that the vast majority of bullets available kill quite reliably when put through the vitals. I’m sure it happens, but I’ve never personally seen an animal hit through the heart and/or lungs go far at all. Even with Barnes that penciled through with a very narrow wound channel. Hell, even with one where I learned while dressing that the guy I was with was shooting FMJ. And no, I’m not arguing that larger/different bullets in any way make up for poor shooting, and it’s no doubt cartridges with less recoil are easier to shoot better. About the only poor shot where it makes much difference is through the guts, where two holes (ideally a decent exit) make the tracking work far easier. If there is tracking, which happens after poor shot placement (assuming the hunter takes the time to verify the hit), two holes bleed better than 1, but well hit animals rarely need tracking at all. All I’m saying.

After looking at the various threads, I have no doubt about the carnage caused by these bullets. Never stated I did. I don’t care for that bullet performance in larger caliber cartridges either, which is my own personal preferences for a variety of reasons. That’s why I shoot quality monos. That is generally the opposite of the smaller/heavier high BC answer, since speed is a big factor. If I cared to hunt at longer range, I’d tip more towards lead core bullets.


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[Castle Rock]

Is there any data out there on why our military selected chamberings like the .300 norma and 300 prc over rounds like the 6.5 creedmoor and the like? I’m genuinely interested in what factors lead them to select magnum .30 cals in these next generation sniper weapon systems.

Is it the max effective range determined by when the bullet enters transonic flight? Maybe an anti-material aspect to it?

Body armor, like elk and bears wear on the other websites

 

[hereinaz]

Bringing up PRS/NRL is funny to me, because a vast majority of guys in those spaces will still bring up energy and the need for a bigger cartridge when it comes to hunting, that I've seen anyway.

You are right. That is one of the trends within PRS that also have their nearby caliber prone ELR rigs.

It’s not that Form has the monopoly on “the right way.” There are guys like Broz that will keep hammering with big 30 Cal’s. And, they are more than capable, they are amazing and they can make many shots the little calibers can’t dream of. The way those guys shoot their rifles is amazing. They control recoil and spot shots, employing skill and technique for it. I still have my 7mm cause I am under no illusion that my little rifles can do what it does at long range.

As far as small calibers, it’s not all PRS that went the way I did, but many do. Lots went to 6.5 creed from magnums and 30 cals. And, that is my point how PRS has influenced the smaller caliber.

And, the big bullet tradition carried sway in the NRL Hunter leadership. They set the “heavy hunting bullet” and power factor to get away from gamer rifles in 6mm to make it more realistic. And, so guys could use their hunting rifles.

They didn’t want it to be another PRS with lots of gaming. It is far more realistic than PRS with only blind stages and field positions. “Gamers” are running .25 creeds with 26” barrels to make power factor with the least recoil. I don’t fault them.

 

[Billy Goat]

Little late, but I think depending on where you are it can be hard to understand just how many deer get killed in some Eastern areas. Deer are shot like varmints in the west. I was renting a smaller farm (80 acres) that bordered a small town. I was initially given 30 damage permits and they told me to call when I needed more. There's companies that own reefer trucks just for handling carcasses from culls. Not uncommon for them to be shooting 30-100 a night.




I don't enjoy killing that much, I quit putting crops in on that farm.


Deer are like forking rabbits tho.

 

[Mike Islander]

I’m all for a little hyperbole….but when folks start talking about the “thousands” of animals they’ve killed…the credibility starts to fade a bit.

If you’re a hunter that’s over 50 and a professional “meat” hunter in some capacity like kangaroos in Australia or something…ok, maybe.

Beyond that…I call bullchit. Want to make me eat my words?…post up some photos of your face with even a single “thousand“.

Let's see; Aron, Ryan, Robby (you know, the guys who own Rokslide.com) trust Formidilosus, hunt with him, shoot with him, vouch for him, and have made him a super moderator. He's posted literally hundreds of dead animals here for years. He's taught more stuff that's been verified by hundreds more Roksliders, and confirmed with photos of dead animals. I think Formidilosus has earned the right to his anonymity if he so chooses.

Aside from personal curiosity, it's unreasonable to continue to question his experience. And he owes you nothing.

 

[Mike Islander]

Let me be clear I do not doubt the effectiveness of .223s or associated TMKs. I killed my first deer with one in 2016 with my AR. I killed a bull and a buck with 88s last season and posted the photos.

It’s the “thousands” of animals part that’s just a bit much to swallow.

It’s the internet though…we’re all ninjas right? Everyone needs a hero I guess.

You've been here for almost 5 years. You should already know.

 

[DJL2]

I would 100% be using an AR with an LPVO for at least one tag just to see if it's for me. If it wasn't, my .45-70 or .375 Win lever rifles would come out, and I'd shoot cast bullets through the lungs.

I’ve taken AR in a couple calibers (.223 Rem, 6.8 SPC) into the woods. They are without peer when you get into a sounder - they’re also great when you need to make follow-ups on running game. I ran mine with an Accupoint, but a RDS would work just as well. In the woods, especially, magnification isnt required and can be more hindrance than it’s worth.

Generally, my view is this- match the tool to the task based on a sub optimal shot. I’ve seen deer killed with 22lr. That’s not a good plan, though. Plan to take a shot through bone, through grass filled paunch, at distance (where your velocity has dropped to a point where bullet expansion windows matter), and be able to do so quickl…without your Kestrel.

Part of this comes down the hunters presented with situations where there is no good shot… or they don’t have the skill to make the shot offered… and they shoot anyway.

I have a fraction of the experience of some here, but when I examine the challenges folks experience in the field with shot placement and bullet performance, the two I see frequently are:

1. Animals shot too high with no follow-up. The animal went down, so it’s job done... until it gets up a runs, because they didn’t get the spine and they didn't get the vitals.

2. The “nothing” shot. Placed too far back, they slip it between the lungs and the liver, and the animal is off the races.

I choose to mitigate both of those by selecting bullets intended to create the widest possible wounding… penetration is not the issue I see, but I‘m hunting “the continent” or out west either.

 

[Marbles]

Have you ever had a big coastal brown bear skull in your hands? (Like a beetled or boiled skull) there is nothing there that is going to stop a tmk, they are not that thick.

I would way rather have 5 shots with an AR than one with my s&w 500, and in an actual situation, you almost certainly aren’t getting more than one shot with a big wheel gun

5 tmk’s to the face, head, and neck (probably not super precision shooting in that situation) or one big narrow wound somewhere?

I love shooting big wheel guns, but I don’t think there is a single scenario in this country that I would rather pack one if my life depended on it.

I would always rather a rifle. I think you misunderstood me, but I was trying not to be too wordy and cut descriptions short, so I can see how what I was saying was misunderstood.

My point was that no one is going to carry a rifle capable of an instant stop with anything other than a CNS hit. So, a 223 with a 77 TMK is a valid option as it will likely work just as well given that the bullet design is less likely to deflect than say a mono and it is adequate to penetrate the skull or break vertebra. To be clear, if my 223 Tikka is slung across my chest and my 454 is in a holster on my chest, the Tikka is what I would bring into play if a bear presented itself.






The most vulnerable point of a hunt is when cleaning an animal as your attention is on the animal and the sharp knife in your hand, how fast are you at grabbing a rifle? Do you make a point of keeping it within 2 feet of your torso at all times? It is too much mental effort for me.

If the bear is physically on top of me, it will be impossible to bring even an SBR into action. Regarding a semi auto pistol, I know I am not skilled enough at braced contact shooting to have a second shot if things are that close and personal. I figure at that point my odds of survival are low, so I just want to hurt the son of a bitch as much as I can and see what happens. At least having something to focus on will take my mind off of the sound of teeth breaking my bones.

5 TMKs that do not enter the cranial vault are not a sure stop. My first goal is 1 shot into the CNS (and at distance a rifle beats a pistol), speed be damned because slow is smooth, smooth is fast. If delivered with precision, yes, more is better, but only if each one is delivered well. There is no such thing as panicking fast enough to survive and for me counting on multiple shots is a comfort blankie to justify panic. Precision is the surest salvation.

 

[BjornF16]

On the other hand I think it a lot weird how many people blindly follow someone’s advice as the gospel without trying it out for themselves.

I have a least (2) scopes that allegedly failed “the test” by merely riding in a vehicle. Mine are still dead on zero after several years of riding in trucks, atvs and golf carts in rough rocky “roads”. If you’ve ever ridden off road in a lifted golf cart, rough is an understatement.


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You sound like the perfect candidate for the “anti-Form”.

Let’s get the N. Texas crowd together and do our own drop tests to prove your point…

 

[Marbles]

Ultimately I don't really care if Form is actually a crazy cat lady living in New Jersey and this is the biggest troll in the history of the internet. His suggestions and advice work for me, so I will continue to use and enjoy the .223.

This is what people don't understand. I don't give a steaming turd in flight how many animals the guy has killed. His advice regarding guns is consistently solid. He either has the experience to back it up, or is a master of listening to those who do. Either way, the result is the same.

I have personally not taken his advice on a scope, and money and time down the road I now have what he recommended to start and am happier with it.

I thought I sucked at shooting off hand (well, sucked worse than I actually do), but today I hit an 8 inch plate off hand at 123 meters with my first shot. Turns out, I suck at off hand when I'm gripping the rifle too tight and pulling it into my shoulder too hard. It seriously has me considering a 6mm CM over a 7mm-08 to rebarrel my 308. The 308 was a step down from a 30-06, and even that improved my shooting, which is what pushed me over the edge on getting the 223 I was shooting today.

I have watched people not believe him, then come around. I remember a thread were the guy was convinced his NF was the problem, and disagreed when Form said it was not. He ended up meeting Form in person and then posted to the thread that the scope was not the issue. It still took me years to crawl around to where I am today.

Form has spent quite a bit of time acting credibly. There are people posting on this thread who claim to have killed lots of animals and think they should be listened to as a result. They have not taken the time to build credibility, and the contradictions in what they have written destroy any hope of building it, then they get butt hurt when I and others don't listen to them. When offered, repeatedly, they don't anti up.

 

[Mike D Texas]

You sound like the perfect candidate for the “anti-Form”.

Let’s get the N. Texas crowd together and do our own drop tests to prove your point…

The only thing I am anti is blindly following someone/something when my personal experiences have differed.

But I guess dissenting opinions and experiences aren’t allowed here.


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[Mike D Texas]

This is so true. Game has been lost due to wounding with every rifle cartridge in every reloading manual and game has been taken with every rifle cartridge in every reloading manual with every bullet in every reloading manual. Warranties have been used on every optic from Barska to Tangent Theta. Every rifle from Mossberg to Seekins has a rifle make it to the consumer that came back for one issue or another. The same can be said for almost everything we use in hunting or our daily lives.

I say, if you like using what you are using, and are doing so successfully, enjoy. Whether that's a .10 Eichelberger for Grizzlies or a 4 Bore for Cottontails, you do you. I'll continue to use what I use but I'll be here to thumbs up your success in the field.

I actually agree with you.

You do you and I’ll do me. If we are both successful then that’s awesome.


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[HingleMcCringleberry]

The only thing I am anti is blindly following someone/something when my personal experiences have differed.

But I guess dissenting opinions and experiences aren’t allowed here.


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Nobody is blindly following anyone or anything. They are observing factual information provided to them and making objective decisions.

It's really simple. Use what you want.

 

[ElPollo]

The only thing I am anti is blindly following someone/something when my personal experiences have differed.

But I guess dissenting opinions and experiences aren’t allowed here.


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Opinions carry less weight than data. Show your work like Form has. We will respect you for that no matter the result.

 

[idahodave]

it's unreasonable to continue to question his experience.

hahahaha….my bad.

 

[Thegman]

Well, this went south fast...

What was the original question again? Oh yeah, I remember now. Okay, I already answered that. It didn't have anything to do with how many animals someone has or hasn't shot, just the results shown here and what I've seen personally so far trying out what was shown.

I don't recall anyone telling me I had to do it though, or keep doing it. I was under the impression it was voluntary.

 

[eric1115]

The only thing I am anti is blindly following someone/something when my personal experiences have differed.

But I guess dissenting opinions and experiences aren’t allowed here.


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I agree, blindly following a person is a recipe for ending up in a bad spot.

Can you document your differing personal experiences? I welcome dissenting opinions if there's data to back them up. If there's no data or documentation, I'm left with blindly following someone's differing personal opinion.

 

[hereinaz]

The only thing I am anti is blindly following someone/something when my personal experiences have differed.

But I guess dissenting opinions and experiences aren’t allowed here.


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Mike, from your posts you have some different requirements, and while I love little calibers I would shoot my “big” 7mm in your situations.

Two things come of this. One is rule that the .223 works and is easier to shoot. Not everyone believes it.

The other is the exception. Not every situation calls for a .223 and not every shooter is incompetent with a big caliber.

If you fall into the exception, you will always end up arguing it against the rule. Many people believe they are the “exception” but really aren’t.

Either way, there will be disagreements. I have mine with the smaller is better extreme. I just don’t argue that nuance without understanding what is happening.

 

[Mike D Texas]

Opinions carry less weight than data. Show your work like Form has. We will respect you for that no matter the result.

How do you prove a negative?


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[roosiebull]

I’d take kill pics with a giant grain of bias as they inherently come from animals that were :


1. Hit.

2. Hit in a vital spot.

3. The bullet performed.

4. The hunter recovered the animal.


That sample is going to exclude hunters or bullets that failed in any of those.

Is that said for all cartridges or are you saying it’s more so with smaller cartridges? I would expect most folks here to be honest about things like that, or what’s the point?

I guess you can hold onto whatever you want to convince yourself that your feelings>mass data, but why would anyone lie about that?

Why would anyone want someone else to shoot the same cartridge as them? Some narcissistic validation or something?

People are simply finding out that smaller cartridges with the right projectile is highly effective, and easier/more enjoyable to shoot, why is that so hard for some to comprehend, even with a bunch of empirical data.

Nobody is saying bigger cartridges don’t work, but I also think most jacked up pickups are unnecessary for the people driving them, go as big as you please, nobody cares, but it seems like many get offended when they show proof that smaller cartridges kill just as dead.

if I have an experience that makes me think whatever rifle I’m using isn’t enough, I will go a different route, but I have never witnessed that with any animal or cartridge

I seriously don’t think there is a bunch of bad experiences with small cartridges covered up for the sake of promoting smaller cartridges… I would guess (and bet money) that the opposite is more true, but we’ll never know and is pointless to discuss things like that because of it.

But honestly, why would people leave out the bad experiences? What would the motivation be?