What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[eric1115]

Of course, this is obvious, but that's not really very many compared to the total number of animals killed.

Meh, I'd put more weight in the opinion of one guy with 500 kills than in a poll of 1,000 guys with 5 kills each. 5 kills tells you essentially nothing meaningful, so that's 1000 guys with no valuable information even though it's 10x the number of animals.

 

[jimh406]

Meh, I'd put more weight in the opinion of one guy with 500 kills than in a poll of 1,000 guys with 5 kills each. 5 kills tells you essentially nothing meaningful, so that's 1000 guys with no valuable information even though it's 10x the number of animals.

As noted, I didn't realize he was talking about just what he shot.

 

[gerry35]

That’s where I’m at. I’ll never move on from 30-06 but I could see getting out of the 300wmmand 375 game.

I already did similar so but mine is a 35 Whelen I really like. Our 260, 6.5x55 and 6.8 Western will handle most game for us. Your 30-06 will be plenty for anything you'll encounter.

 

[wyosam]

Well, one could go by sarcasm, or one could go by evidence. My evidence is somewhere between 250 and 300 animals killed- from antelope to moose, and from Florida to Washington. North to south, east to west with 22 cals without issue. Quite the contrary actually. The vast majority being with a 223 and 77gr TMK. Every single animal that has had a bullet touch it has been recovered. That includes a significant amount of deer in the SE swamps and brier thickets, as well as the TX scrub brush.

In all those animals, the amount of rodeos, chases, gut shots, long tracking jobs, etc are a tiny fraction of what has been experienced in that same time frame and the same amount of animals, by the same people with larger calibers and cartridges. By far the most disasters have been with “magnums”.


These make believe “but what about _____”, scenarios are just that- make believe.

I was being sarcastic, but now I’m curious- how similar are the animals that “bullets touched” vs animals shot at?


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[wyosam]

I was being sarcastic, but now I’m curious- how similar are the animals that “bullets touched” vs animals shot at?


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I didn’t realize who I was responding to, and expect those numbers to be the same.


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[fwafwow]

What's the consensus?

Not sure about consensus, but those who have bought into the concept are willing to trade the effects of the TMK (as an example), even if there is no pass through vs the pass throughs that you can get from other bullets.

 

[Formidilosus]

I was being sarcastic, but now I’m curious- how similar are the animals that “bullets touched” vs animals shot at?


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I was mostly addressing others reading.


I believe in those 250-300 we have had 6 misses except for one brand new hunter, very excited on their their first animal.

 

[gerry35]

For me that would be a 223 lever action then.




Well, you’re already on the same train track then, just not as far along.





The problem is that no one has done a comprehensive evaluation on the difference between large and small rifle calibers on bears, and especially not with differences in projectiles. I know of a few that have killed multiple brown and grizzly bears with AR’s- they all said they died as they did with anything else and the AR is their choice for killing them.

Funny you mention the lever gun, the pistol grip Browning BLR fits me amazingly well. I would opt for the 300 WSM myself for a bear stopper would consider the same gun in a 30-06 or even 270 Win.

As for mentioning us doing better with 300's over 375's since they are easier to shoot my grizzly I shot I messed up the first shot with the 375 and we had a mess to clean up. Totally shooter error on my part. That experience was pivotal in me downsizing, gun was too heavy and didn't fit well. I helped a couple of buddies drop their bears just before dark too, one with the 35 Whelen and one with the 375 Ruger. No way we were going to let them get into the thick bush before dark. I'll be glad when we get our season back.

I would like to see what long time guides like Phil Shoemaker would have to say on bear stoppers. I used to guide for a guy that had a lot of coastal grizzlies to his credit and all he used was a 338 WM which isn't that big of a round. He had some real rodeos he had to sort out with some big and poorly it bears. His main guide carried a 7 mm RM and did fine.

 

[iamthenick]

New to the forum, but curious as to whats the bottom limit for caliber and weight then? Not doubting the effectiveness of .223 with a heavier bullet but whats the minimum size and weight yall would sacrifice for speed? Ive seen 4100 fps from .243 varmint rounds advertised, would be interested to see that with a more solid bullet.

 

[JGRaider]

Well, one could go by sarcasm, or one could go by evidence. My evidence is somewhere between 250 and 300 animals killed- from antelope to moose, and from Florida to Washington. North to south, east to west with 22 cals without issue.

So how do you come up with that many tags?

 

[JGRaider]

I am in the thousands- plural, of game animals that I have killed, or that have been killed beside me, with the first 7-8 years being almost entirely 300wm, 338wm, 300 RUM, and 308win.

How many people do you hunt with every year, and how many years did it take to reach the "thousands"?

 

[Formidilosus]

So how do you come up with that many tags?

I hunt. A lot. I also have done culling/depredations.

 

[JGRaider]

I hunt. A lot. I also have done culling/depredations.

So how many buds do you hunt with, and over what period of time did you kill "thousands" of animals? Just curious.....

I do culling as well. Whereabouts do you do that, here in Texas?

 

[JGRaider]

Formidilosus said:
I am in the thousands- plural, of game animals that I have killed, or that have been killed beside me, with the first 7-8 years being almost entirely 300wm, 338wm, 300 RUM, and 308win.


So "thousands" plural, is obviously more than 1000, so lets just say 2500 animals that you have killed or witnessed alongside you with your group. So if you did that over a 15 year period, you guys would kill 167 animals every year, for 15 years. Is that close to what you're representing? I've been hunting for 51 years, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around these numbers you're throwing out.

 

[Formidilosus]

Formidilosus said:
I am in the thousands- plural, of game animals that I have killed, or that have been killed beside me, with the first 7-8 years being almost entirely 300wm, 338wm, 300 RUM, and 308win.


So "thousands" plural, is obviously more than 1000, so lets just say 2500 animals that you have killed or witnessed alongside you with your group. So if you did that over a 15 year period, you guys would kill 167 animals every year, for 15 years. Is that close to what you're representing? I've been hunting for 51 years, so I'm just trying to wrap my head around these numbers you're throwing out.

I’m not sure what you are seeking? I’m not sure of the exact count of animals, as there is no way to know. I shot a 300wm barrel out doing almost nothing but crop depredations- the most deer in a single day was in the mid 60’s, and others were doing the same. Just hunting, not culling or depredation I never went below 20 for over a decade- most years I averaged between 40 and 50.
I haven’t killed in those numbers for a few years, however it is still relatively high yearly.
It’s easy to gather as there are probably more than a hundred pics of dead animals on this board from me alone. Last year was 20 elk, and several deer. The year before was 16-17 elk, and quite a few deer. The year before was 14 elk IIRC, and quite a few deer. Etc, etc.

As for how many people I hunt with a year, quite a few.

 

[Anschutz]

I've only made it about 300 posts into this thread over the last few days due to time and slow foreign wifi. Here are my thoughts having looked at a good deal of pictures on the mentioned threads.

For background, I shot competitively at an extremely high level through college and have continued when I can in other disciplines. That's not a brag, it just means I have pulled a trigger with intention a lot. That being said, I have missed 3 shots while hunting big game. Two were in my early years of hunting (12-15 years old) and one was in 2020 because I didn't have/take the time to range it and was a good 200 yards off due to terrain and leaving my scope on 10x from the last practice session.

1) Accuracy is the #1 component of killing animals. It doesn't matter whether that bullet performs like a 77gr TMK from a .223 or a 250gr TTSX from a .375. If it's a miss or not in the vitals, you're going to have a bad time. While I can shoot my Service Rifle a scoche better than my .270, I can still shoot my 270 a lot better than many can with a .223. They can practice for less money than I can, but I've got a base of experience that allows me to maintain my skills with less time on the gun. I do dry fire (or play with my toys as my wife says) at least weekly with my primary hunting rifle.

2) Some people handle recoil better than others. I started hunting with a sub-6lb single shot .243. To 9 year old me, that thing kicked like a mule. What I didn't know at the time, was it kicked about the same as my father's 9lb .270 and he probably didn't either. Through a lot of practice (it's fun shooting ammo dad's buying), I learned to shoot that rifle very well. What I say about recoil is that whether you hit your target or miss, the recoil is a constant so you might as well hit your target. An 8lb 300 Win Mag is not fun to shoot but I can still shoot one well. I don't care if I can spot my hit because I can call my shot. If I'm taking a shot on an animal, the first thing I'm doing is running the bolt. I'm preparing for another shot whether it's needed or not.

3) If you're going to shoot a match bullet, know it's limitations. I don't remember many pictures posted of animals shot hard quartering away (entrance in the rear 1/3rd) in those threads. I saw that Form posted above that the 77SMK is good for about 12-14" of penetration which isn't enough to get into the vitals at all angles on all game. You have to be willing to eat tag soup if the bullet you choose is not going to get the job done.

4) @Formidilosus, if I show up to a guided hunt in grizzly country and my guide has a .223 and TMKs, I'm getting back on the transport. I know your comment was likely tongue in cheek but I want my guide to put that griz in the dirt time now. I don't care how the bear is doing 30 seconds from now.

I choose an 8lb .270 for the bulk of my hunting. My primary reason for this is that I enjoy the cartridge and the rifle and shoot it well. Here in about 5 or 6 years, I will have a .243 or 6CM because I will have two kids coming to shooting age and besides the practicality of having one primary cartridge to load for, I think most kids would find it cool that they have the same thing that dad has.

 

[ramsdude47]

Ok so for someone who is a legitimate novice and hasn’t shot enough to know any better…

When I started shooting I quickly found that I was fairly recoil sensitive. Fast forward a couple seasons and a significant amount of practice PLUS a suppressor.

I bought a Savage 300WSM Ultralite and honestly even without hearing pro on I don’t flinch when it goes off. The recoil doesn’t bother me. I have no question I could shoot 5x more rounds at the range with a suppressed 6CM, but I think I’m fairly GTG out to 400 yards.

Does all of this hoopla on Rokslide (which cartridge you shoot, which scope you use) matter all that much if you likely won’t shoot past 400-500 yards?

 

[Anschutz]

What old school cartridges were the soft points coming from that didn’t penetrate?

I am picturing a 30-30.

Do the bigger soft point bullets expand faster than smaller closed tip or plastic tip bullets?

John Nosler invented the Partition after a bad experience with traditional cup and core bullets on a Moose. He was shooting a 30-06 if I recall correctly.

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[gerry35]

John Nosler invented the Partition after a bad experience with traditional cup and core bullets on a Moose. He was shooting a 30-06 if I recall correctly.

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It was a 300 H&H

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

. An 8lb 300 Win Mag is not fun to shoot but I can still shoot one well. I don't care if I can spot my hit because I can call my shot.

. When I want to spot my hit it’s because I need to do a wind correction for shot #2, not poor form. “Calling your shot” is based off your performance when the rifle went off and how you were aligned with the target, it doesn’t take into effect the error in a 10vs 5mph wind, or misreading the wind halfway to the target. Form has shown data from Wez that most misses are going to be from wind. That’s why I want to be able to spot my hit. And a higher caliber shot from an unusual field position is not shooting from a rifle line.