We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[NRA4LIFE]

As I stated earlier, here in WA I have put in for 5 categories of elk, deer, sheep and moose for 20+ years. And my chance of drawing any of them is still a fraction of a percent. Is that any different than completely random? Doesn't seem so. Too many people applying, too few tags. I will most likely never draw 3 of the 5. I will be dead.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I guess I run on the life is not fair. There are things you can do every day to make a better future for yourself and it never happens. Why do we think that hunting is any different? I hiked 13.5 miles once, spent an entire day looking for a deer. A guy in the camp down the road shot one from the road. Some people get lucky and draw multiple tags, some dont. Life is tough.

I agree with the sentiment, but fairness is still a laudable goal even if it's not perfectly attainable in all facets of life.

Thats kind of my point with point systems. Your odds arent necessarily better with them so why have them and bring on all the BS that comes with them?

The calculated statistics don't guarantee anything, but if you believe in math, your odds are necessarily better over the long term in a point-based system compared to a purely random system. If you wait long enough (and live long enough) in a preference point system, you will get your tag. If your goal is too lofty though, you may die before you get there. But you may also die before you win the lottery in a high demand random draw.

Even in a pure bonus point system, everything I posted still holds true. States went to those and down the line, they still didnt work so now they square the points. Whats next squaring the square?

I think some states do cube bonus points. In my model the orange curve is a simple bonus point system (exponent = 1), and the blue curve is bonus points squared (exponent = 2). Increasing the exponent makes the draw odds curve lower and flatter on the front end followed by a steeper climb. As the exponent increases, the bonus point draw odds curve and the ensuing results will more and more closely resemble a preference point system. If you applied a sufficiently large exponent to bonus points, you could replicate exactly the results of a preference point system.

 

[CorbLand]

I agree with the sentiment, but fairness is still a laudable goal even if it's not perfectly attainable in all facets of life.

The calculated statistics don't guarantee anything, but if you believe in math, your odds are necessarily better over the long term in a point-based system compared to a purely random system. If you wait long enough (and live long enough) in a preference point system, you will get your tag. If your goal is too lofty though, you may die before you get there. But you may also die before you win the lottery in a high demand random draw.

I think some states do cube bonus points. In my model the orange curve is a simple bonus point system (exponent = 1), and the blue curve is bonus points squared (exponent = 2). Increasing the exponent makes the draw odds curve lower and flatter on the front end followed by a steeper climb. As the exponent increases, the bonus point draw odds curve and the ensuing results will more and more closely resemble a preference point system. If you applied a sufficiently large exponent to bonus points, you could replicate exactly the results of a preference point system.

The problem with hunting is there really is nothing you can do that doesnt take from someone else. Some say its fair to give people preference over others because they have applied for longer. Others say its fair when everyone is on the same level. Who can define fair?

Either way, sounds like I just have to live long enough to draw a tag. In my home state, going to pure random and not a hybrid, would double the tags I have a shot at each year. I would far rather take my chances of that.

 

[WCB]

So you’re stuck no matter if the easy to draw unit you pick just happens to be the one everybody else does so now you’re committed for 10 years for a garbage tag? Or CWD prevalence goes thru the roof, or they double tags or cut tag numbers in half, or a massive fire goes thru, or there is bad drought, or massive winterkill, or any of the other dozens of things that can happen to a unit?

This seems like one of the worst ideas yet. You could apply for a mid-tier unit with no idea how many people are ahead of you for that same tag and wait the rest of your life and never draw and not be able to drop down to the unit next door that takes less points.

sucks to suck... if people want to fix point creep/people stacking points just to do it well...

If you look at the context of the idea it is from a line of people just applying in impossible to draw units just to stack points until they have enough to draw the unit they want. In reality you have no idea year to year what any unit you apply to is going to take. Huge winter kill and fires already cause people with a bunch of points to bail out of those units into other units....Never said I was a huge fan of the idea but it is an idea.

 

[ckleeves]

sucks to suck... if people want to fix point creep/people stacking points just to do it well...

If you look at the context of the idea it is from a line of people just applying in impossible to draw units just to stack points until they have enough to draw the unit they want. In reality you have no idea year to year what any unit you apply to is going to take. Huge winter kill and fires already cause people with a bunch of points to bail out of those units into other units....Never said I was a huge fan of the idea but it is an idea.

Outfitters would really love this idea when their clientele pool takes a nose dive. There are simple solutions for reducing point creep (at least in CO).

Any A list tag takes your points even if it’s a LO voucher. That one’s gonna be huge. If you want to take it further and really flatten things out go to an Idaho system where you gotta chose if your going OiL app or deer, elk antelope. I for one would be completely out of the deer, elk antelope game until I finally drew a sheep tag.

 

[roadrunner]

Some say its fair to give people preference over others because they have applied for longer. Others say its fair when everyone is on the same level. Who can define fair?

Mostly, the one's who say it's fair for everyone to be on the same level have never had a long "drought" of not drawing a single tag, or don't have the points to really have a good shot at a tag. The one's who go years without drawing can appreciate the long awaited reward of being given preference.

Most people don't calculate the likelihood of pulling a tag correctly. A simply ratio of 100 tags to 1,000 applicants isn't a true likelihood of drawing. It simple means that 1 tag will be given to every 10 hunters. Your true likelihood goes down each time a tag is assigned to a hunter through the random draw. Your best liklihood is at the beginning, your worst is the last tag available.

And then there's luck, which has everything to do with it.

 

[CorbLand]

Mostly, the one's who say it's fair for everyone to be on the same level have never had a long "drought" of not drawing a single tag, or don't have the points to really have a good shot at a tag. The one's who go years without drawing can appreciate the long awaited reward of being given preference.

Most people don't calculate the likelihood of pulling a tag correctly. A simple ratio of 100 tags to 1,000 applicants isn't a true likelihood of drawing. It simple means that 1 tag will be given to every 10 hunters. Your true likelihood goes down each time a tag is assigned to a hunter through the random draw. Your best liklihood is at the beginning, your worst is the last tag available.

And then there's luck, which has everything to do with it.

Maybe, but once again who can or how do you define fair?

I have waited a long time and am still waiting to draw some tags, I still think its fair to put everyone on the same playing field. I have lived in both systems and I will take random every day of the week. I live within a short driving distance of the border. Theres quite a few that choose to live on the opposite side for a few reasons but a common one is the ability to draw tags.

One thing that I left out of my original reasons for not liking point systems is on display in this post. The idea that because someone has applied longer, and waited makes them appreciate it more. Thats flat out wrong. I know guys that draw there first go around and have the best time of their lives and know people that spent 27 years and couldnt wait for the hunt to be over. It doesnt matter how long someone waits, they will either appreciate it or they wont.

 

[wapitibob]

A buddy waited 20 years for his tag despite my bagging on him to go hunt next door. 20 year memories turned out to not be quite the same as modern day reality.

 

[MattB]

This is just creepy. You need a job, or… something.

ETA not surprised it turned into a shit show. Disappointed I guess. I thought it might be one of those few things that if fixed somehow might be beneficial to both NR and residents (as outfitters like repeat clients, and it’s good for their business.) Also like I’ve said repeatedly, residents are also affected by point creep depending on the species.

With all that being said, if I pissed off you off enough that you are willing to stalk down every thread I’ve ever participated in on this forum, I think it’s time I quit participating in any of these conversations. I’ve already probably shared a bit too much personal information on this site anyway.

The mood in any of these threads has turned from healthy conversations to pretty much toxic over the past 6 years.

If only the internet had a “door”, there is a choice saying that we could have applied here….

 

[MattB]

One thing that I left out of my original reasons for not liking point systems is on display in this post. The idea that because someone has applied longer, and waited makes them appreciate it more. Thats flat out wrong.

I don’t disagree with that sentiment, but it is not only that people have waited longer. It is also that they have financially supported the DFG and by extension wildlife for longer. To me that is a more compelling argument.

 

[roadrunner]

Maybe, but once again who can or how do you define fair?

Nobody can because fairness is different for everyone. My fairness might be your "to hell with that".

I have waited a long time and am still waiting to draw some tags, I still think its fair to put everyone on the same playing field. I have lived in both systems and I will take random every day of the week. I live within a short driving distance of the border. Theres quite a few that choose to live on the opposite side for a few reasons but a common one is the ability to draw tags.

Some hunts it absolutely makes sense to not have any points. NM OIL oryx being one of them and most any bighorn sheep. Being forced to wait is more of a function of mismanaging a points system more than anything else. ALW LE San Juan bull in Sept is a prime example.

One thing that I left out of my original reasons for not liking point systems is on display in this post. The idea that because someone has applied longer, and waited makes them appreciate it more. Thats flat out wrong. I know guys that draw there first go around and have the best time of their lives and know people that spent 27 years and couldnt wait for the hunt to be over. It doesnt matter how long someone waits, they will either appreciate it or they wont.

Not that they appreciate the hunt more and not that because they had to wait it will mean more, but they appreciate the concept of eventually getting "first pick" with accumulating enough points to finally pull the tag after years of not drawing in completely random draws elsewhere. Anything earlier is just dumb luck.

The people I know in the complete random draw in NM that despise the concept of a point system also pull tags every year. And it's not because they "study" the odds report and put in for lesser quality hunts. They pull some of the best tags in the state quite regularly. Sometimes back to back years. Is that fair? Nope. But in a random draw where everyone is equal this first time applying vs the 25th time applying for face value it is.

As I've said, I have yet to pull a pronghorn tag in my home state and in the same timeframe was able to pull one in UT because of points. It wasn't the SRN unit, but a "lesser" one and couldn't have been more happy.

In a completely random state, it's either nice sunny weather, or the clouds build quick and the rainstorm is a soaker that lasts for years. Occasionaly, you get a break as the storm cell circles around but it always comes back.

Increased applications and the inability to draw a tag in your home state is why people apply everywhere else. It's why I do...

 

[WTFJohn]

Hey OP, if this is your takeaway from this thread you need to take a long look in the mirror and at how you carry yourself. You run away when your post history is brought up, then go to the other forum and selectively share the facts to make yourself feel better.

I remember when you did that with your cow elk hunting story too.

If you think anything said in this thread has been outside of societal norms, please go outside and interact with the real world. When you post online, it is permanent. When you post dumb things, people remember.

I like forums. I’m a child of forums. I started posting on forums in the early 2000s. But they are dying…

I quit a forum I had been frequenting for a few years about a year ago. I didn’t have a lot of posts there, and if you weren’t one of the cool kids, your opinion wasn’t warranted on more or less anything. So I took my clicks and content and logged off. I’m thinking about doing the same to a few others.

******* has always been home, but even this place doesn’t move like it used to.

Yeah I know part of the conversation has moved to Facebook, but I don’t use that crap, and **** Zuckerberg.

I think part of it is just a general breakdown of societal norms. The internet has always been a place where thick skin was needed, but it’s gotten worse. Way worse. The forums I’ve quit have largely been due to the fact I didn’t need that kind of negativity in my life. As bad as **** is at times, this place always had some positivity when it mattered.

Anyway it’s just sort of a sad observation. The internet isn’t what it once was.

TLDR, old man yells at clouds in 1’s and 0’s.

It’s really not.

Had another place I hadn’t stepped foot in in a while… It had gotten a bit toxic so I decided to give it a break.

Stepped back in and it was far worse than I remembered. “Log out”

I think part of why it’s good is that it’s big. Small forums get “clicky.”

 

[wytx]

You seriously think anyone will be able to draw a GEN tag with 5 points in the future?? Makes absolutely no difference how many points it took this year. For example, I drew a GEN tag this year with 5 points. Last time i drew was in 2018 with 2 points. You care to apply your logic and tell me how many years it will take for me to draw again? You really think i can draw again in 6 years with 5 points? Man, if so, thats gonna be the BOMB!! Im so stoked!

We shall see I guess. Pull out your wallet and go for the special draw if you think you need another bull license.

Bless your heart, need a tissue?

And yes, I think next year general may be 5 PPs again, in the special.

 

[BuckRut]

I've been going back an forth on how well making people wager their points would work. When you put if for a draw you select so many of your points and throw them in the hat. At that point they are gone forever whether you draw or not. Definitely out of the box but would get a lot of points off the table much quicker.

 

[5MilesBack]

Hey, my daughter and I just drew late season doe pronghorn tags! Hers as a first choice with 0 points, and mine as a second choice with 19 points. The system "does" work if you know how to use it. If these had been lottery tags, we could go a lifetime without drawing.

 

[fngTony]

This is a great topic to discuss, let’s keep things respectful.

 

[CorbLand]

I don’t disagree with that sentiment, but it is not only that people have waited longer. It is also that they have financially supported the DFG and by extension wildlife for longer. To me that is a more compelling argument.

I guess I don't really see applying and paying the fees as supporting wildlife to a degree that one should get preference. I am sorry but in Utah, its easy and cheap to do so. There are so many things that one can do that help wildlife that don't get counted in a way of giving them preference over someone else that simply saying the money aspect is more important just doesn't add up to me.


We do things everyday of our lives that we may never see a pay off for, I dont see hunting as any different than that. I can put in for 45 years (random or point system) and never draw. I could put in for 45 years, draw and not kill. Its the risk one takes by participating.

 

[KHNC]

We shall see I guess. Pull out your wallet and go for the special draw if you think you need another bull license.

Bless your heart, need a tissue?

And yes, I think next year general may be 5 PPs again, in the special.

Uh no, I dont need a tissue. You know little about me or what i can or can not do, or have done, physically , mentally or monetarily. You should probably keep your insults to yourself. Its obvious that you dont have to be concerned with petty NR things like drawing a GEN tag. However, its very naive to think it will take exact number of points to draw a GEN tag in 6 years as it does currently. It went from 1.5 to 5 in 6 years. No reason to think the same thing wont be the case by then.

 

[SDHNTR]

Another part of the issue is the mentality that if someone wants to hunt, they must be applying in every state. It wasnt long ago that you could hunt your home state and never leave. Now people have a mentality that if you arent applying in five states your not worthy of a tag.

It’s not so much a matter of worthiness, but rather, that’s what it takes to draw decent hunts consistently.

 

[wytx]

Insults?
I asked if you needed tissue after you posted a crying emoji, lol.

You stated most will not draw a bull licenses in their lifetime and I posted I disagreed, then you took it to the 5 PP to draw angle.
Good grief man, I never said it would be the same in 5 years but maybe next year or 2, do you have crystal ball to know otherwise?

Men get so hurt over someone not agreeing with them. Get over it , nothing was personal.

Hope you have good luck this Fall, as well as all the NRs spending their hard earned cash to hunt Wyoming.