We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[280ack]

The organizations you listed recognize that states managing their wildlife/owning it is settled law, and they’re not going to waste money or alienate members trying to advocate for something that will not change.

How would you address resident vs non-resident tuition and enrollment at colleges and universities? The Federal government provides funding to state colleges and universities by way of federal student aid, grants, and contracts. Yet, these institutions have in-state and out of state tuition based on a student’s residency as well as enrollment caps also based on residency.

Because these institutions receive federal funds, should non-residents be provided an equal percentage of the total enrollment? A state’s universities are chartered to provide education to its resident students, but if we’re applying the same logic non-resident hunters are trying to apply to western state’s license allocation and fees, I suppose we should try to get those state schools federal funding ended or increase non-resident enrollment because they’re paying more than a resident, right?

The organizations you listed recognize that states managing their wildlife/owning it is settled law, and they’re not going to waste money or alienate members trying to advocate for something that will not change.

How would you address resident vs non-resident tuition and enrollment at colleges and universities? The Federal government provides funding to state colleges and universities by way of federal student aid, grants, and contracts. Yet, these institutions have in-state and out of state tuition based on a student’s residency as well as enrollment caps also based on residency.

Because these institutions receive federal funds, should non-residents be provided an equal percentage of the total enrollment? A state’s universities are chartered to provide education to its resident students, but if we’re applying the same logic non-resident hunters are trying to apply to western state’s license allocation and fees, I suppose we should try to get those state schools federal funding ended or increase non-resident enrollment because they’re paying more than a resident, right?

Sir, Yes it is a road no one wants to travel, I communicated with a law professor specializing in this very subject, She stated the challenges have never been successful. To your point about schools, I wonder if federal boundaries on spending, "use of" and program guidelines would help?

I dont think that any state school charges the multiples that the state F&G agencies charge NR hunters. I am told the average increase of instate vs out of state tuition is 2x to 3x for out of staters. I also understand the average make-up at state schools is 35-40% out of staters.

Schools compete for enrollment and consider the body/enrollment when setting school policy, curriculum and things impacting the general student body including. That is missing or off balance in the factors of hunting.
Schools are also managed differently, because they accept federal funding they have rules that go along with the money, diversity rules come to mind. I don't know if thats good or bad? I don't think many of the schools would survive without federal $$, I cant imagine they have many Billion dollar endowments like the "ivy level" schools. I don't know enough about state schools to suggest changes, I think the difference is that many more options exist.

 

[danhuntingmi]

This has been argued in the courts multiple times and it just plain comes down to States vs Federal rights as laid out in the constitution. It flat is what it is and there’s nothing you can do to change that it’s the states wildlife regardless of what land the wildlife reside upon. Again good luck barking up that tree.

Edit: I suppose you could attempt to lobby congress to change those rights but again god luck with that.

Note that I didn't say anything at all about what the courts did or didn't say. I said that fundamentally, and practicality aside, I believe that all Americans should have equal rights on federal lands. My opinion stands.

 

[idelkslayer]

Note that I didn't say anything at all about what the courts did or didn't say. I said that fundamentally, and practicality aside, I believe that all Americans should have equal rights on federal lands. My opinion stands.

Good news! All Americans do have equal rights on federal lands.

What you are failing to separate is rights to access and use of federal lands from access and rights to State-owned wildlife.

 

[BBob]

I believe that all Americans should have equal rights on federal lands

You are perfectly free to come and recreate on those lands just like the rest of us do you just can't come and harvest an animal in the name of "equal". As said before the .fed doesn't have a say in the ownership of the animals.

 

[danhuntingmi]

Good news! All Americans do have equal rights on federal lands.

What you are failing to separate is rights to access and use of federal lands from access and rights to State-owned wildlife.

You are perfectly free to come and recreate on those lands just like the rest of us do you just can't come and harvest an animal in the name of "equal". As said before the .fed doesn't have a say in the ownership of the animals.

You don't seem to be reading. Again, I never said anything about what the courts or current regulations said. In my opinion every American should have the same right to hunt on federal lands on the same license as a state resident. Period.

 

[wapitibob]

You don't seem to be reading. Again, I never said anything about what the courts or current regulations said. In my opinion every American should have the same right to hunt on federal lands on the same license as a state resident. Period.

When/if hunting becomes regulated by the Feds, your wish may come true.

 

[danhuntingmi]

My outlook is I also feel that, fundamentally, all Americans should have equal rights, on federal lands at least. But then we look to Alaska for what happens when the feds control hunting. Ironically, only Native Americans and locals (not just residents, locals) are allowed to hunt in some cases. They would like to do this more.

I get plenty of chances to get outdoors to hunt in my home state. I understand that if I want to hunt out west or AK my choices are limited and will become more so. If I/we cared that much, I'd/we'd move. These states have fewer economic opportunities and are near family for less people. We all make our life choices. We all live with them. I'm happy I had my chances to see other states. Our future generations might not get that chance. I'm not trying to be calloused but pretending reality isn't really true doesn't help anyone.

When/if hunting becomes regulated by the Feds, your wish may come true.

 

[Lawnboi]

Honestly I just wish they would take the games out of buying points. I don’t mind waiting, being reduced, whatever. But it’s kind of a kick in the nuts to have to buy some BS small game license, or charge what they do just to get into the casino to play the game.

You don’t need to say it, I know I don’t have to buy points at all already.

 

[BBob]

I'd be in for no point systems like New Mexico but the stickler is you are going to have to run out the clock on all those that currently have points. How long will that take? Now if you say just get rid of the system tomorrow how many lawsuits will there be from those sitting on points that they duly paid for? No easy solution!

 

[IdahoBeav]

People just need to understand that much of NR applications are no longer worth getting involved in if you are at the starting point, be it having just cashed out points on a tag or just getting started in a state's system. The state wildlife agencies are not going to tell you this. They will continue to take your money, and you will get nothing in return.

If hunting western species is very important to you, you should relocate to a western state.

 

[JFK]

Too many people after a limited resource. It’s that simple. You can think about different tag allocation schemes all you want and it will do absolutely nothing. We are the problem that we hate.

 

[Poser]

You don't seem to be reading. Again, I never said anything about what the courts or current regulations said. In my opinion every American should have the same right to hunt on federal lands on the same license as a state resident. Period.

As in there should be 333 million elk tags issued? 1 for every American? Or, there is a lottery amongst the several million people who apply for such tags?

and then, do you still expect the state to manage this wildlife and enforcement of federal regulations, or do you create federal game wardens, federal lottery system etc? What about BLM land? Corps of Engineer land etc? does each agency manage that separately?

Everytime I read such an argument as you have presented, and these arguments get posted to various hunting FB groups multiple times a week, I think, "now there's a guy who hasn't really thought this through." If you are going to make this argument tenable, you need the entire methodology laid out for how it works, who enforces what, where the funding comes from etc.

 

[danhuntingmi]

My outlook is I also feel that, fundamentally, all Americans should have equal rights, on federal lands at least. But then we look to Alaska for what happens when the feds control hunting. Ironically, only Native Americans and locals (not just residents, locals) are allowed to hunt in some cases. They would like to do this more.

I get plenty of chances to get outdoors to hunt in my home state. I understand that if I want to hunt out west or AK my choices are limited and will become more so. If I/we cared that much, I'd/we'd move. These states have fewer economic opportunities and are near family for less people. We all make our life choices. We all live with them. I'm happy I had my chances to see other states. Our future generations might not get that chance. I'm not trying to be calloused but pretending reality isn't really true doesn't help anyone.

As in there should be 333 million elk tags issued? 1 for every American? Or, there is a lottery amongst the several million people who apply for such tags?

and then, do you still expect the state to manage this wildlife and enforcement of federal regulations, or do you create federal game wardens, federal lottery system etc? What about BLM land? Corps of Engineer land etc? does each agency manage that separately?

Everytime I read such an argument as you have presented, and these arguments get posted to various hunting FB groups multiple times a week, I think, "now there's a guy who hasn't really thought this through." If you are going to make this argument tenable, you need the entire methodology laid out for how it works, who enforces what, where the funding comes from etc.

Reading my post, it's clear that I did think it through.

You may consider my ideal extreme, but it's far less extreme than the current reality. When you consider the extent that sport hunting on federal land is mostly enjoyed by such a small subset of Americans it's pretty amazing to think about. And we both know it doesn't end with state lines. Currently, countless acres of federal land is held hostage by a handful of private landowners.

But I'd hope not to get so far off topic. I've done out of state thing and lived at least half time next to large swaths of federal land for four years. It's no easier to see nonlocals swarm your spots than out of staters. I get that it's stupid I need over 10 points to hunt at least one animal out my backdoor. I get that it's a grey area. But, in my ideal world, we'd all get equal opportunity to hunt on federal land.

 

[KurtR]

Life is about choices. Choose where you want to live and what advantages or disadvantages come with it. Hunting is top of my list so I choose a place I can hunt a lot. Why should expect other states to accommodate me?

 

[roadrunner]

If state A and state B have the exact same problems but state A has a waiting period and state B doesnt why would you implement state A system to solve the problem in state B?

If you say we should do what XX state does because of YY and someone from XX state, that deals with it every year comes and says it wont fix what you think it will and your solution is to discount them due to living there then this conversation isnt worth having or continuing.

I dont live in Ewe-tah, I live in Utardia.

I know people that draw year after year for the same hunts the guy down the street applies for as well that never draws. May not mean the other guy will finally draw, but at least the lucky guy sure as hell doesn't get to go every year either and somebody else does for a change.

This thread was about fixing a point system. Point systems are intended to reward long time applicants or to make things "fair" as abstract as that may be.

All I said is that I like the idea of a waiting time. It would be good to see it applied to a state that goes unbridled and unchecked with how many times a person can routinely draw for the same species in a row.

I also like the idea that you can only draw one tag and not several. That's point system related as well.

UT's draw system is actually pretty good. UT just doesn't offer enough to cycle people through. Being stuck on "quality" will do that...

Over and out.

 

[CorbLand]

I know people that draw year after year for the same hunts the guy down the street applies for as well that never draws. May not mean the other guy will finally draw, but at least the lucky guy sure as hell doesn't get to go every year either and somebody else does for a change.

This thread was about fixing a point system. Point systems are intended to reward long time applicants or to make things "fair" as abstract as that may be.

All I said is that I like the idea of a waiting time. It would be good to see it applied to a state that goes unbridled and unchecked with how many times a person can routinely draw for the same species in a row.

I also like the idea that you can only draw one tag and not several. That's point system related as well.

UT's draw system is actually pretty good. UT just doesn't offer enough to cycle people through. Being stuck on "quality" will do that...

Over and out.

Just an FYI, you can draw multiple tags in Utah. You can’t draw multiple limited entry but you can draw an LE, general season and antlerless tag all in the same year.

 

[roadrunner]

Just an FYI, you can draw multiple tags in Utah. You can’t draw multiple limited entry but you can draw an LE, general season and antlerless tag all in the same year.

And, as an FYI, they're governed by a preference point system as well, so, you won't necessarily draw every year - a forced waiting period without calling it that.

I think you even eluded to that earlier on...

 

[diamond10x]

These discussions always remind me of that article by Fred Eichler about anti-hunting hunters. Residents of any state with the mind set "muh state owns muh wildlife, I'm entitled to every tag and unit, we don't need no non-resident hunters, etc" are the anti-hunting hunters.

I'm not saying NR should have a deciding factor in allocations or management of the resource, but there needs to be a hard look in the mirror by a lot of folks, because as we speak there are initiatives to remove seasons and ways of take but residents of those states are too worried about getting their tag and not prolonging the tradition and privilege of hunting. Sure would be a shame to lose means of take and seasons to anti hunting groups, who get LOTS of money from out of state sources by the way, because all you had were the few resident hunters that only care about them and theirs and not the big picture.

 

[CorbLand]

And, as an FYI, they're governed by a preference point system as well, so, you won't necessarily draw every year - a forced waiting period without calling it that.

I think you even eluded to that earlier on...

Some of the draws are preference but limited entry is a hybrid bonus. One could draw multiple tags every year, just very hard and very unlikely.

If you unit shopped, one could get a general season archery deer, OTC elk and rotate through antlerless options and you would have three tags about as many times as you only have two.

 

[30338]

We moved west 28 years ago to take advantage of all the things it has to offer. Now days you have to put up with a lot of liberal socialist bull sh**. But in the mean time I drew and killed bighorn, mtn goat, moose, elk, bear, antelope, whitetail, mule deer as a resident. Life is full of choices. We don't all get equal results or even equal opportunities.

Give this country another 10 years and I don't think the focus will be so much on hunting and recreational issues. I think it will move to issues that are far more serious. But in the meantime, enjoying the NR whine about no OTC elk tags in CO anymore. Along with all the other stuff.