UPS Strike

[JFK]

Nothing says rugged individualism like opting out of paying union dues while still benefitting from their representation and pay raises.

 

[Sherman]

You really have no idea how markets work.


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You really have no idea how companies will abuse employees left unchecked.

If you guys had it your way, we would have Chinese-style sweatshops and you would still complain about the “complainers” with the “back in my day” BS.

Show me on the doll where the bad man touched you.

 

[bpa556]

I’m showing that the world around the latest generation got radically more expensive extremely fast and the generation above them has their hands over their ears screaming about hard work when they lived a great life with a highschool diploma, brainwashed their children into an overpriced degree and then called them commies for asking for a pay rise when they couldn’t afford the same small home their parents bought in the 70s.

Omg why are kids not buying homes anymore, omg why are they not buying 20k dollar wedding rings, omg why can’t they pay 100k in state tuition with a side job waiting tables on Friday night why are these millennials wanting the same life I lived?!

They need to shut up strap up their boots and become a useless middle manager like I did. The idea that they should work hard and then get promoted to not being a laborer establishes the idea that if you’re still a laborer(which is literally required to make the world work) you don’t deserve to afford to raise a family. Which is imo absurd.

Reading comprehension seems to be an issue for you.

No one is arguing that laborers should not earn a living. The argument is that part time package sorters are not entitled to a “livable wage”. That is an entry level position where you prove your potential for advancement.


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[Sherman]

Reading comprehension seems to be an issue for you.

No one is arguing that laborers should not earn a living. The argument is that part time package sorters are not entitled to a “livable wage”. That is an entry level position where you prove your potential for advancement.


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Agreed, part time package sorters are not entitled to a living wage. I don’t believe a part time wage of $21/hr is a living wage.

I wonder if UPS purposely keeps “part time” workers at 38-39 hours per week as to not classify them as full time. I know of many companies that do this. Hardly a part time job at that point.

 

[backyardbandit]

@Billy Goat that is a good thought...I do agree, entry level jobs are usually the easiest to automate. I think the days of having multiple part time jobs may be over....I bussed tables on Fri and Sat PM, swept a garment factory floor Mon-Thur while I was in college.....unsure how to automate bussing tables, but can easily see the garment floor being cleaned by a robot.....

Oh it's coming!

 

[ScreamingPotato]

We recently ate at a sushi place that had robots bring the food to your table. When you order you tell them your table number, then a robot parks at the table and sits there til there's no weight left on the trays. No tips!

 

[william schmaltz]

Nothing says rugged individualism like opting out of paying union dues while still benefitting from their representation and pay raises.

I assure you that I've lost more money to inflation because of your precious unions putting their garbage politicians in office than any raise I will ever see from their tantrums.

 

[bpa556]

So what’s wrong with staying where you’re at and negotiating as a whole for it?

Nothing wrong with it, so long as it doesn’t hurt the “evil” business providing everyone’s living.

The idiocy is the notion of negotiating raises for everyone when 10% deserve them, 75% don’t deserve them and 15% deserve termination.


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[bpa556]

There’s nothing wrong with leaving and going somewhere else. I did it.
And there’s nothing wrong with an organized negotiation. In my opinion it’s better for the company to pay the negotiated rate than to have employees leave, have temporary reduction in workforce, hire and train new people and then still have to raise your rate to keep up with the place your previous employees left you for.

How did I prove myself wrong? The co-op raised their rates to match the utility’s rates that the union bargained for. If there’s no union to negotiate a higher rate, then there’s no higher rate to have to match. The union created the higher wage.
But beyond all that, the bigger point being the co-op had the money in its pocket all along and wouldn’t pay it until they had to.

It seems like we’re both having a hard time understanding how the other is missing such obvious points. What’s going on here ha??

Ok, sorry, it wasn’t aimed at any individual. But I do feel that way about people that talk bad about a group that fought for benifits they are currently receiving.

Your example is not one of free markets.

You left a private company (co-op) to work for a public utility. The utility will agree to nearly any union demand in negotiations because they are a government entity (state or municipality). Taxes will cover any shortfalls from service fees.

The co-op is a private corporation owned by the members (shareholders). The entire point of it is the membership controls their power at the lowest cost possible.


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[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Unions put workers on equal footing with management. That’s why management hates them. Simple as that. You can track the decline in US union membership with the decline of the middle class. Simultaneously, executive salaries have sky rocketed. The Koch brothers and the like have done a good job of convincing people they are better off without unions, but the numbers in real (inflation adjusted) numbers tell a different story. Non union workers benefit indirectly by the existence of unions, as they help to set a going rate for a given job. Without unions many non union employees would be getting paid far less. Paying people a decent wage doesn’t cost society money. Companies give it to them in salary so they can live, or they end up on government subsidies and you and I pay for it.….yet another form of corporate welfare.

Considering UPS handles 6% of the US GDP, you better believe that their costs have both a direct and indirect impact on "society". They ship daily over 20.7 million packages in the US and over 24 million across the globe. When you factor in their pension costs, legacy/current/future, how UPS does as a whole has a direct impact on its pensioners which are part of "society".

UPS is going to have to decide where to get the $30 billion. Are the shareholders going to approve eating the entire cost? Will the costs be directly passed on to the customers? Only a fool (generic and not targeted at a specific individual) would believe that the business and its owners will foot the entire bill.

On a side note, I do wonder how many of the "screw the owners" people have a retirement account that holds a S&P 500 or "total stock market" fund in it. And those that do, I find it rather humorous that they are telling themselves to "go f--k themselves". The sad part is they're likely so clueless they are likely to not even know it.

I appreciate what unions did for the US labor market decades ago. The current manifestation of unions in the US is not my flavor of Kool-Aid.

And before anyone gets their delicates all ruffled up, I'm pro consumer.

 

[bpa556]

As a company owner it’s infuriating to an employee who can’t manage to show up to work "not too high" and on time to try and hold me hostage for more pay because he wants it.


The whole we will walk out and strike turns me off. Just leave then. There is no need for theatrics. You want to negotiate cool, explain to me with facts why you’re worth more. No need for threats though. The threat is you will go elsewhere if you don’t get what your searching for.

You proved my point is the market will bear what the market will bear. Y’all didn’t just make up $ for the negotiations. I'm sure the union did a national market analysis to prove their worth. The union didn’t create a higher wage. It was already there they just argued for it.

We are missing each other’s points. You are off on IBEW skilled sparkys and the topic was UPS and unskilled part time manual labor pay.

I take great issue with a high school dropout with a heartbeat trying to negotiate for a living wage. you make bad decisions you reap the consequences. If you make bad choices life is supposed to be hard. You can change your fate at any time with hard work and an education. Nope I do not believe all people have the same worth. Nope I do not believe that someone that is working an entry job should be comfortable enough to make it a career / living wage. How do you feel about someone that did not graduate high school getting handed a living wage. Didn’t you have to work to earn your wage?

I agree with most of your post. Your obsession with education sounds borderline neurotic.

Don’t equate education with intelligence or aptitude. You’d burn whatever degree you revere so much if you had any idea how many successful business owners were high school dropouts.

Education can be important in certain fields. Aptitude and drive are absolute necessities.


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[MightyWhitey]

Your example is not one of free markets.

You left a private company (co-op) to work for a public utility. The utility will agree to nearly any union demand in negotiations because they are a government entity (state or municipality). Taxes will cover any shortfalls from service fees.

The co-op is a private corporation owned by the members (shareholders). The entire point of it is the membership controls their power at the lowest cost possible.


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That’s bold talk for a guy that’s not a member or ever laid eyes on any of our contracts with the utility. You must’ve missed the part where I said the union agreed to a 0% raise because that was the company’s last, best and final offer. I can assure you that’s not the percentage raise we asked for starting the negotiations.

Or am I wrong and you are/were a union member?? You seem think you know how contract negotiations go for everyone.

 

[Txarcher]

I guess ÙSPS has already started receiving packages from UPS

 

[Szwampdonkey]

This thread is weird. Came to read about the UPS Strike and contract negotiations, but the conversation has devolved into whether people should be paid a wage they can live on.

I guess I'm radical in this regard. I think a 40-60hr work week, regardless of skill required for said labor, should pay enough to cover food, health insurance, transportation (this necessitates a car in most places), a studio apartment, and the modern necessity of a cell phone--a living wage. Just because you may have had to grind yourself into the ground through excessive hours worked or debt to achieve success doesn't mean it's right.

If a business requires full time employees that it can't or won't pay a living wage, seems like a business failure to me. Especially considering society at some level has to make up/subsidize the difference in some way.

So if you work 40 hrs a week working McDonalds you think that should pay enough to pay for living rent, car, phone, food, kids, etc?????

Flipping burgers,……really?

Man, this country is losing its way.

 

[4090Sharps]

So if you work 40 hrs a week working McDonalds you think that should pay enough to pay for living rent, car, phone, food, kids, etc?????

At somewhere between 40-60 hours a week, 100%. That work sucks, I wouldn't want to do it.

There shouldn't be a shortfall between cost of living and a full time job. Those costs will be imposed on society elsewhere if the company isn't paying enough--either government subsidized (housing, food, insurance, healthcare, childcare, etc.) or borne needlessly by an external support system (family, friend, charity, church). There's no free meal.

I'd much rather see that money go directly from a company to the employee than (in the case of a publicly traded corporation) filter back through the system in a decreased amount through taxes or charity.

 

[Reburn]

I agree with most of your post. Your obsession with education sounds borderline neurotic.

Don’t equate education with intelligence or aptitude. You’d burn whatever degree you revere so much if you had any idea how many successful business owners were high school dropouts.

Education can be important in certain fields. Aptitude and drive are absolute necessities.


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Can’t burn what I don’t have. Didn’t go to college. I put everything I had on the line and if I would have failed I would have been living on the street. I didn’t fail because I never quit though. Education doesn’t = college. It could be trade school learning to be a plumber or HVAC tech. I know many trades that make north 200k a year with high school degrees. But they have licenses they worked hard to obtain.


While a degree doesn't offer conclusive proof that intelligence or aptitude are present, it’s a good indicator that something is there.

You cant teach aptitude or drive to adults and most people don’t have any or anywhere near the amount they think they do. The best you can do is get them to learn something to better themselves.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

At somewhere between 40-60 hours a week, 100%. That work sucks, I wouldn't want to do it.

There shouldn't be a shortfall between cost of living and a full time job. Those costs will be imposed on society elsewhere if the company isn't paying enough--either government subsidized (housing, food, insurance, healthcare, childcare, etc.) or borne needlessly by an external support system (family, friend, charity, church). There's no free meal.

I'd much rather see that money go directly from a company to the employee than (in the case of a publicly traded corporation) filter back through the system in a decreased amount through taxes or charity.

It's supposed to suck, go elsewhere and make more money once you've gained a view of reality and learned what your parents have been telling you for years to educate yourself or gain some skills and move on. If you get your way then a burger will cost $50 and that same employee will need even more money to feed themselves and be in the same position they are now. You don't make any progress artificially inflating salaries of entry level jobs attempting to make them a livable wage.

 

[4090Sharps]

It's supposed to suck, go elsewhere and make more money once you've gained a view of reality and learned what your parents have been telling you for years to educate yourself or gain some skills and move on. If you get your way then a burger will cost $50 and that same employee will need even more money to feed themselves and be in the same position they are now. You don't make any progress artificially inflating salaries of entry level jobs attempting to make them a livable wage.

Well, yeah, if we keep subsidizing giant corporations' profits and billionaires, that will be the obvious outcome.

 

[MightyWhitey]

If I understand how unions get started in company. Is it a negotiation or is it the workers strong arming the company into the union workforce? I am asking this as a question because I don't know exactly how it works. But I didn't think that UPS asked to have a union workforce. So that doesn't seem like a "negotiation" to me. Like the Amazon union vote. They tried like heck to unionize them. But Amazon has been able to hold them off.


And you proved my point on how supply and demand works to get workers more money. If someone down the road is paying more then the other companies will have to raise wages to compete. Doesnt matter if its a union or non union company. Competition is competition People getting more money for a wage isn't due the "union guys" helping them get it. I am sure there are instances like you mentioned that a union group has helped wages in a area. But I dount its as much as is thought by the union guys.

I may be way off base on this point. But couldn't the unions also be hurting the non union workers in the sense of driving up cost of goods and services? I mean UPS isn't just going to swallow the extra wage payout. Its getting passed on to the customer. I am not just talking about UPS either. Just think about everything you buy that is handled by and or made by union workers. The extra money that they negotiate for is payed for by the end user. Not the person paying the union worker.

As far as your questions about how unions get started in a company I can only speak from my personal experience in line work and it goes like this.
The company is treating its employees like shit, enough guys get sick of it and approach a local union hall representative about getting organized. They have meetings with the employees and usually about this time the company gets wind of it and starts its intimidation and fires a few people to try to scare the rest. if 51% of that workgroup agrees they want to bring in the union then that’s what happens. Then the process starts of negotiating a contract between the union/employees and the company. If that other 49% doesn’t want to join and pay dues they don’t have to. But, those that don’t join still reap all the rewards of this new contract the union and new members got them. And those people are called rats. I think they justify it by saying the “market” got them their raise and it’s just disguised as a contract agreement.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I’m just relieved they came to a settlement. I just ordered a T3X in 7mm-08 last Friday and I been sweating’ bullets!

I’ve worked for several abusive companies in my life and finally found a career with union membership. Both situations I worked like I owned the place. Gotta say I was treated much better when I was in a union.