UPS Strike

[bpa556]

Wow!!!! Every job should not pay a liveable wage? Who pissed in your Wheaties? This is a clown take if I’ve ever seen one.

That is correct. Every job should not pay a livable wage. Entry level jobs are the gateway to a career. One should not be able to raise a family on one entry level gig, especially a part time one.

Get real dude.


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[WeiserBucks]

That is correct. Every job should not pay a livable wage. Entry level jobs are the gateway to a career. One should not be able to raise a family on one entry level gig, especially a part time one.

Get real dude.


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100% correct. When I first struck out into the world I had an entry level welding job during the day, washed dishes at a diner at night, washed logging trucks on Saturday and cut firewood to sell on Sunday and I was still broke as a joke with a new baby at home.

 

[Reburn]

Man I don’t know what union your company has a contract with, but that’s grounds for termination everywhere I’ve been.

You guys are making it sound like these people just up and decide strike after lunch any given day of the week. Our membership has to vote to strike and that talk only came up when the company refused to negotiate on a new contract (every three years).

So are you trying to say that the “market” wage would be at the level it’s at without a union negotiating it? Surely you don’t believe that? So yes, the union is responsible for it being where it is.

And you’re right, I got off on IBEW just in defense of the union bashing in general.

No, I don’t think moving boxes is worth as much has handling high voltage. I’m not saying your entry level job should be a career.

But I do think if any work group wants to organize they should have the right to negotiate those conditions. If it bothers you so bad let them all walk and hire some new ones. Problem solved. We probably agree on more than we don’t.

We agree on most. However.

No I don't believe that the union is going to get a company pay more then market for talent. A company will pay what they have to pay to fill the position to continue to operate. If they cant fill the position at the current rate they will have to raise the rate to find the talent. A company may decided to pay more then market to keep its current workforce as to not incur restaffing and retraining and loss of production costs. Thats how the market works.

 

[Billy Goat]

Kinda off topic, but this talk of entry level jobs brings up something I have been thinking about for a while.



With a decrease in birth rate, we are seeing less entry level workers every year, simply because they aren't there. So companies try to automate, like these ******* self checkout things. And apparently fast food makes you use a kiosk now to order.



So I just kinda wonder how this entry level stuff is gonna get filled, some will be replaced with automation, lot will just likely be eliminated.


Biggest factor is really just a changing work force and everyone trying to figure out how to handle that.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I would imagine that alot of the immigrants would be looking for entry level employment, right?

 

[Jimbee]

I would imagine that alot of the immigrants would be looking for entry level employment, right?

Is there a joke here?

 

[Zerk]

Unions put workers on equal footing with management. That’s why management hates them. Simple as that. You can track the decline in US union membership with the decline of the middle class. Simultaneously, executive salaries have sky rocketed. The Koch brothers and the like have done a good job of convincing people they are better off without unions, but the numbers in real (inflation adjusted) numbers tell a different story. Non union workers benefit indirectly by the existence of unions, as they help to set a going rate for a given job. Without unions many non union employees would be getting paid far less. Paying people a decent wage doesn’t cost society money. Companies give it to them in salary so they can live, or they end up on government subsidies and you and I pay for it.….yet another form of corporate welfare.

They should be paid what job is worth. Not the role of employer to keep them off welfare.

Some where we made our employer our daddy

 

[bozeman]

@Billy Goat that is a good thought...I do agree, entry level jobs are usually the easiest to automate. I think the days of having multiple part time jobs may be over....I bussed tables on Fri and Sat PM, swept a garment factory floor Mon-Thur while I was in college.....unsure how to automate bussing tables, but can easily see the garment floor being cleaned by a robot.....

 

[Billy Goat]

unsure how to automate bussing tables

I mean, places require you to check yourself out now.

Probably turn restaurants into cafeterias where you return your trays.



20 years ago a retailer would have thought it was crazy to let a customer scan and pay for their own items. But I do remember when Sheetz came to town and had a touchscreen to order food, I realized they did away with atleast 2 employees with those 6 screens.

Just need smarter people to fix those automated pieces of chit.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Our grocery store has has one self check out machine with an employee monitoring it constantly, perhaps to keep folks honest? Why have a check out machine that requires a human to monitor it constantly? I don't get it.

 

[searlest]

Strike has bees settled !

 

[Szwampdonkey]

As an adult with responsibilities, I'd like to change careers and do something other than construction. Been looking at different jobs and talking to folks... It sucks knowing I'd make like a quarter of construction wages changing careers. Lots of things I'd like to do/try, but man the thought of making younger me wages is awful! I guess I'm glad I fell into construction and loved it for a time.

Funny thing, i used to work construction in my younger days and I MISS IT, lol. I went the college route and it’s led me to a good career but i kid you not there are days i’ll drive by a construction site and i’ll envy them as i miss working with my hands, tools, in the dirt, outside, etc. It’s funny how that sorta stuff works cause when i was in construction there were days i hated it. haha

 

[Szwampdonkey]

I mean, places require you to check yourself out now.

Probably turn restaurants into cafeterias where you return your trays.



20 years ago a retailer would have thought it was crazy to let a customer scan and pay for their own items. But I do remember when Sheetz came to town and had a touchscreen to order food, I realized they did away with atleast 2 employees with those 6 screens.

Just need smarter people to fix those automated pieces of chit.

Automation is somewhat a result of no skill employees demanding “livable wages” to do entry level type jobs anyone can do. These jobs weren’t considered careers until certain politicians told people they are and promised to help (even though they won’t) to get their votes.

Demand $20/hr to stand and plug someone’s fast food order into a register, make the customer do it via a kiosk. Demand $20/hr to scan someone’s items at Home Depot, make the customer do it via self checkout.

Unskilled people are complaining themselves out of jobs and making it harder for unskilled workers entering the workforce in the future.

Moral of the story, better learn something that makes you worth hiring to someone if you plan on working for someone else as a career. Building, designing and fixing self checkout kiosks is likely a good option.

 

[Billy Goat]

Automation is somewhat a result of no skill employees demanding “livable wages” to do entry level type jobs anyone can do. These jobs weren’t considered careers until certain politicians told people they are and promised to help (even though they won’t) to get their votes.

Demand $20/hr to stand and plug someone’s fast food order into a register, make the customer do it via a kiosk. Demand $20/hr to scan someone’s items at Home Depot, make the customer do it via self checkout.

Unskilled people are complaining themselves out of jobs and making it harder for unskilled workers entering the workforce in the future.

Moral of the story, better learn something that makes you worth hiring to someone if you plan on working for someone else as a career. Building, designing and fixing self checkout kiosks is likely a good option.

Even at $8/hr, it's cheaper to have self service versus an employee.


Makes it easier to pass the idea onto the consumer tho when you can phrase it that we can't afford it, or can't find people.



Agriculture has been struggling with this stuff for 20 years, now it's hitting everyone else. Only seasonal labor you can find anymore is migrant, and that's getting pretty difficult as well.



Automation killed the machinist first, once CNC came out, no need to have a shop full of skilled machinists, automated machines that ran 24hrs a day, only needed a fork truck driver to set material and remove product, and a programmer.

 

[4090Sharps]

This thread is weird. Came to read about the UPS Strike and contract negotiations, but the conversation has devolved into whether people should be paid a wage they can live on.

I guess I'm radical in this regard. I think a 40-60hr work week, regardless of skill required for said labor, should pay enough to cover food, health insurance, transportation (this necessitates a car in most places), a studio apartment, and the modern necessity of a cell phone--a living wage. Just because you may have had to grind yourself into the ground through excessive hours worked or debt to achieve success doesn't mean it's right.

If a business requires full time employees that it can't or won't pay a living wage, seems like a business failure to me. Especially considering society at some level has to make up/subsidize the difference in some way.

 

[bpa556]

We agree on most. However.

No I don't believe that the union is going to get a company pay more then market for talent. A company will pay what they have to pay to fill the position to continue to operate. If they cant fill the position at the current rate they will have to raise the rate to find the talent. A company may decided to pay more then market to keep its current workforce as to not incur restaffing and retraining and loss of production costs. Thats how the market works.

Yep


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[bpa556]

Unions put workers on equal footing with management. That’s why management hates them. Simple as that. You can track the decline in US union membership with the decline of the middle class. Simultaneously, executive salaries have sky rocketed. The Koch brothers and the like have done a good job of convincing people they are better off without unions, but the numbers in real (inflation adjusted) numbers tell a different story. Non union workers benefit indirectly by the existence of unions, as they help to set a going rate for a given job. Without unions many non union employees would be getting paid far less. Paying people a decent wage doesn’t cost society money. Companies give it to them in salary so they can live, or they end up on government subsidies and you and I pay for it.….yet another form of corporate welfare.

There is not a shred of reality in this entire post.

This drivel evidences one side of the core beliefs driving this debate, misguided as they may be.


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[bpa556]

If companies don’t pay employees enough to live in the area they serve, they won’t have any employees. What happens when all employers refuse to pay what it takes for somebody to live in the area the company serves? Everybody just keeps moving? We’d be a land of gypsies.

You really have no idea how markets work.


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[bpa556]

It means your company will hire the next batch of dudes willing to take a paycut for living the western dream.

I'll be blunt, grown men complaining about pay is ridiculous. If you're worth more, you'll get it. If not. Well, proceed.

Perfectly stated


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[william schmaltz]

I opted out of my union. On my first week I went to the union intro presentation and the lady up front was bragging about how she stalled on a meeting with the employer and some worthless employee that should've been canned past the probation time frame and then the employer and coworkers was stuck with said employee. I guess she thought it was a badge of honor "protecting" this person and keeping worthless employees in the workplace; not sure why anyone sitting at the table would see this as a good thing unless they themselves for also worthless. For me, I didn't want to work with people that I would have to carry. For that reason alone I was out. I'm also not selling out my morals and beliefs and sending a percentage of my paycheck toward the anti-gun and anti-freedom party just to potentially get slightly better pay.

Go to any jobsite or office and 20% of people are doing 80% of the work. If you're one of the 20%, there's no reason to be in a union; you will almost certainly get paid better somewhere else. If you choose to be part of the 80%, that's when I see unions are a great fit.

I also don't see how bragging about how the unions overall raised wages in an area is a great thing. The market should dictate that. Sure, you stuck it to the giant corporation that could afford it. But, what did you do to the guy that's just starting out building his company up and is a couple years away from meeting those wages? I guess if we can kill the little guy and have more and larger corporations, it's just more insurance for the unions to be around longer and we can keep the money flowing to the donkeys.