Unpopular Opinion: I don't like Dave Ramsey

[grossklw]

The other thread got me thinking and I'm just wondering if anyone else feels the same. I'm just stirring the pot a bit, but I love talking finances.

Anyone else here despise Dave Ramsey's advice for people with a handle on their finances? I can't imagine I'm the only guy, I'm sure it's an unpopular opinion but here are my main reasons.
1.) His early advice is good for people struggling, but he's snake oily to me when he talks about using only his endorsed local providers including financial planners (which have no fiduciary responsibility to their clients) or real estate agents. You think his trusted "partners" actually do anything other than pay his company for that certification? They end up getting paid more when they pick high commission funds (less money for you)
2.) He advises against ETF's even though they generally beat his mutual funds when you include fees all f-ing day.
3.) The way he treats people with different opinions of his is ridiculous. They're an idiot or a moron if they don't think his advice is gold.
4.) His opinion that essentially all debt is bad other than your personal home. I have a ton of mortgages on investment property that pay me every single month, couldn't purchase them without debt.
5.) You likely won't get 12% returns in the stock market, especially with his mutual fund ideas when you count fees.
6.) Credit cards are not evil, personal control is. I could take my family to Hawaii every year on credit card rewards just from my business on things I need to spend money on.

People who he's great for.
1.) People struggling with their finances.

He'd tear apart my portfolio, but my net worth would be about 30% of what it currently is if I would've went his route 4 years ago instead of buying my first rental. I'm a much bigger fan of the choose FI, biggerpockets, bogleheads, or mr money moustache train of thought.

 

[elkyinzer]

It's terrible advice that totally ignores the fundamental financial tenet of opportunity cost, but for people that are undisciplined or don't have any understanding of financial concepts, it's better than being neck deep in high interest debt.

 

[SteveCNJ]

The other thread got me thinking and I'm just wondering if anyone else feels the same. I'm just stirring the pot a bit, but I love talking finances.

Anyone else here despise Dave Ramsey's advice for people with a handle on their finances? I can't imagine I'm the only guy, I'm sure it's an unpopular opinion but here are my main reasons.
1.) His early advice is good for people struggling, but he's snake oily to me when he talks about using only his endorsed local providers including financial planners (which have no fiduciary responsibility to their clients) or real estate agents. You think his trusted "partners" actually do anything other than pay his company for that certification? They end up getting paid more when they pick high commission funds (less money for you)
2.) He advises against ETF's even though they generally beat his mutual funds when you include fees all f-ing day.
3.) The way he treats people with different opinions of his is ridiculous. They're an idiot or a moron if they don't think his advice is gold.
4.) His opinion that essentially all debt is bad other than your personal home. I have a ton of mortgages on investment property that pay me every single month, couldn't purchase them without debt.
5.) You likely won't get 12% returns in the stock market, especially with his mutual fund ideas when you count fees.
6.) Credit cards are not evil, personal control is. I could take my family to Hawaii every year on credit card rewards just from my business on things I need to spend money on.

People who he's great for.
1.) People struggling with their finances.

He'd tear apart my portfolio, but my net worth would be about 30% of what it currently is if I would've went his route 4 years ago instead of buying my first rental. I'm a much bigger fan of the choose FI, biggerpockets, bogleheads, or mr money moustache train of thought.

Most free thinkers with a decent level of financial acumen would probably agree. The greater the financial acumen the more clear the pitfalls are that Ramsey espouses.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

 

[browning2480]

You should call him and present your argument about why you are right. Let us know when you do so we can all listen in

 

[CJF]

Listening to his story, it sounds like he was in the same exact place you are in earlier in his life. Housing market crashed, couldn't recruit tenants and couldn't sell houses; he then had to file bankruptcy. His new philosophy is one with less risk.

Definitely less return, but a lot less risk.

I'm not for or against either, just pointing out why his advice is what it is.

 

[Dos Perros]

His advice isn't for people with a handle on their finances, nor is it intended to be.

 

[CorbLand]

I think Dave is really good at getting people out of debt. I don't think Dave is good at teaching you how to make money. I think Daves advice is more geared towards consistency as well. If you can live what he teaches, you will be well off during good economies and bad ones.

I had a buddy that was in a substantial amount of debt. I had just paid off all of what I considered negative debts so he asked me what he should do. I told him, listen to Dave Ramseys advice and get out of debt. As soon as you are out of debt, look to someone that can teach you how to make your money work for you. Someone like Robert Kiyosaki.

I like Daves teachings but dont follow all of them. I think his idea of no debt is a little far fetched and that you need to weigh the pros and cons of making decisions. There is no one size fits all program for everyone but if you follow what he teaches, you will have security. Its a low risk, low reward program but provides consistency, something that a lot of people want.

The one "Pro" that you listed is exactly what Daves audience is. If you came here asking for advice on how to make your money work for you. I doubt you would get a lot of Dave Ramsey responses. So, you really dont have an "unpopular opinion."

 

[Broomd]

I think Dave is really good at getting people out of debt. I don't think Dave is good at teaching you how to make money. I think Daves advice is more geared towards consistency as well. If you can live what he teaches, you will be well off during good economies and bad ones.

I had a buddy that was in a substantial amount of debt. I had just paid off all of what I considered negative debts so he asked me what he should do. I told him, listen to Dave Ramseys advice and get out of debt. As soon as you are out of debt, look to someone that can teach you how to make your money work for you. Someone like Robert Kiyosaki.

I like Daves teachings but dont follow all of them. I think his idea of no debt is a little far fetched and that you need to weigh the pros and cons of making decisions. There is no one size fits all program for everyone but if you follow what he teaches, you will have security. Its a low risk, low reward program but provides consistency, something that a lot of people want.

The one "Pro" that you listed is exactly what Daves audience is. If you came here asking for advice on how to make your money work for you. I doubt you would get a lot of Dave Ramsey responses. So, you really dont have an "unpopular opinion."

That's a solid take on the guy, imho...

 

[WCB]

Seems to me he has helped a lot of people. I have personal friends that have benefited from his stuff and they were not reckless with money and made good money. Sometimes an outside voice helps.

With that said I agree on a lot of what you said but again for people that have no idea where to start I think his info is a huge net benefit. Like any program or teaching the entirety may not be perfect but the idea and basics can be spot on.

Credit cards are good for the right people and absolutely hell in the wrong hands. Can't really get in trouble not having a credit card (my wife has never had one) but having one can run your life.

 

[NDGuy]

Getting out of debt his advice is solid. Other than that I will pass.

 

[Squirrels]

I'd echo what most of you have said. I personally don't have a huge portfolio. I have not debt other than my home either. His advice is great for people who have in all honesty, over extedned themselves or lack the self discipine in regards to spending money they don't have to begin with. Beyond advise to that group, his information is fairly worthless.

 

[texag10]

You should call him and present your argument about why you are right. Let us know when you do so we can all listen in

I've watched a few youtube videos of people that have a basic understanding of how to compare interest rates on debt to returns on investments. If ol' Dave would take 30 seconds to run a time value of money calculation it'd be fun to watch his philosophy slam into the brick wall of basic math. Instead he's a huge jerk, just as @grossklw mentioned.

His methods are simple, which people like. Nuance and knowledge are hard, but it pays off.

 

[peterk123]

The other thread got me thinking and I'm just wondering if anyone else feels the same. I'm just stirring the pot a bit, but I love talking finances.

Anyone else here despise Dave Ramsey's advice for people with a handle on their finances? I can't imagine I'm the only guy, I'm sure it's an unpopular opinion but here are my main reasons.
1.) His early advice is good for people struggling, but he's snake oily to me when he talks about using only his endorsed local providers including financial planners (which have no fiduciary responsibility to their clients) or real estate agents. You think his trusted "partners" actually do anything other than pay his company for that certification? They end up getting paid more when they pick high commission funds (less money for you)
2.) He advises against ETF's even though they generally beat his mutual funds when you include fees all f-ing day.
3.) The way he treats people with different opinions of his is ridiculous. They're an idiot or a moron if they don't think his advice is gold.
4.) His opinion that essentially all debt is bad other than your personal home. I have a ton of mortgages on investment property that pay me every single month, couldn't purchase them without debt.
5.) You likely won't get 12% returns in the stock market, especially with his mutual fund ideas when you count fees.
6.) Credit cards are not evil, personal control is. I could take my family to Hawaii every year on credit card rewards just from my business on things I need to spend money on.

People who he's great for.
1.) People struggling with their finances.

He'd tear apart my portfolio, but my net worth would be about 30% of what it currently is if I would've went his route 4 years ago instead of buying my first rental. I'm a much bigger fan of the choose FI, biggerpockets, bogleheads, or mr money moustache train of thought.

For crying out loud, stop sounding so reasonable.

You made some very good points.

One other thing.... A house is not an investment, it is a necessary expense. Anything that is not an investment should not be leveraged. We all had to have a home mortgage at one point, but pay it off asap. Like you said, go put a mortgage on an income producing property. Leverage increases returns, unless it is not an investment.

 

[CorbLand]

His methods are simple, which people like. Nuance and knowledge are hard, but it pays off.

And this is what he presents. His methods are not to make you rich. They are to provide security and simplicity.

I didnt buy my wifes car to pull a trailer.

 

[carsonkeys]

While I don't believe Dave's teachings will lead one to the pinnacle of financial success, I think that our country would look differently if more college aged kids (and post-grad) tuned in. With the "cancel student debt" culture that's being rammed down our throats, I think Dave's teachings of "you got yourself into this mess, only you can get yourself out, follow these 7 baby steps, etc." is exactly what's needed for that demographic.

 

[DavePwns]

He's good for 95% of the population who have absolutely no concept of how money works.

 

[Antarctica]

Concur on much of what you've said. But he's targeting people that have a problem, and are so down in the hole they can't see daylight.

If you're not that person, then take it with a gain of salt. I've never had problems controlling spending or saving, but I see the value in what he says, and for me, its re-enforcement of how I live my life - debt free, with money in the bank/market. I've never once missed a credit card payment and use them to make my life easy. Yes, they probably contribute to un-necessary spending, but not significantly in my case.

Your data point on using debt for mortgage on income producing investments is different - you're essentially running a business. He is targeting personal finance.

Far as I can tell, you are both right.

 

[Wapiti1]

And this is what he presents. His methods are not to make you rich. They are to provide security and simplicity.

I didnt buy my wifes car to pull a trailer.

Dave would not approve of your trailer.

His stuff is good for the getting out of debt part. The building wealth part is step two and a course he doesn't teach.

Jeremy

 

[CorbLand]

Dave would not approve of your trailer.

His stuff is good for the getting out of debt part. The building wealth part is step two and a course he doesn't teach.

Jeremy

Depends on if I paid with cash or credit for it.

I bought my wifes car on credit, like I said, I dont follow everything Dave teaches but his advice is solid for his intended audience.

 

[CoHiCntry]

And yet, the guy’s net worth is probably more than everyone who’s commented on this thread combined... what a bonehead.