I dont understand

[Snow Doctor]

@Deadfall I am guessing there are a lot of us on here that would be willing to help out landowners if given the chance to represent ourselves and have the opportunity to hunt later. My grandparents farmed 2000 acres in Iowa so I know there are ALWAYS 100 things to get done today on a farm. I have put up more miles of fence than I can count. Would your buddy be interested in hosting some of us in trade for work?

 

[cuerro viejo]

@bsnedeker - the unfortunate thing here is that elk can't speak and have no voice. You state:

"Yeah man, I know a few ranchers and it just blows my mind that most hunters don't seem to give any thought to the position they are in. They have elk crushing their haystacks and pastures that they need to feed their livestock over the winter.."

I think if the elk had a voice, their response would be:

• We were here first and the fact that you, Mr. Rancher, happen to have "money" that we don't have and were able to "Buy" our land or "grazing rights" out from under us does not offset the fact that we still need to eat. Factor that into your business plan, cowboy up (as ranchers seem to boldly say to others) and quit your whining.
• How is it that for ONLY $1.35 per "Animal Unit Month" that you, Mr. Rancher, get the right to graze one cow and one calf or FIVE Sheep all year on THOUSANDS of acres of our land and fodder we need to survive? We have seen entire mountain tops and drainages denuded of vegetation and covered in cow and sheep pies, where we used to have ample native grasses.
  • So for a total cost of only $1,350 per month, Mr. Rancher, you can control THOUSANDS or tens of thousands of acres and graze 1,000 cows + 1,000 calves OR 5,000 sheep and turn formerly lush high mountain pastures and low valley wintering range we used to have into stubble? WE wish we had $1.35 per month for each our elk Cow/Calf "AUMs", because WE would easily pay that to get rid of your some of your AUMs.

Too bad Elk don't have a Lorax to speak for them in front of the BLM and Forest Service, cause for $1.35 they are getting the shaft and if anything has the right to complain, they do.

Best,

JL

CDP would be private land, around me that’s $2k-4k and acre @ 6%interest. Now add on 10 bushels of wheat an acre (62 dollars) loss and or stock units of 10 per 1/2 section of wheat at 200lbs gain so $330/per head or $6600 per section.

So between grain and gain... that’s up to a little over - $26k per section....

That’s a lot on a $110k a year land note. Not counting equipment.

I think the CDP program is a small price to pay for a huge tolerance gain

 

[bsnedeker]

That I do not know.

That was one of my questions as well...there is a seperate pool of Landowner Preference tags in every draw unit that he should be applying for if he qualifies. I can't remember the number of acres you need to qualify, but one of my friends has a ranch in a Central MT permit-only unit and he and his wife draw every year...he hunts archery exclusively so that is a factor in his success for sure.

 

[Beendare]

So what I don't understand...
1. FWP regulations.
2. Entitlement
3. Greed
4. How come the good stuff/interactions is never talked about. Only rotten interactions.

Mindless late night rambling.

Ramblings- yes!

1) FWP regulations are as much politically influenced by outfitters and landowners as whats best for the species

2) entitlements; every state has a landowner program where they get landowner tags..... some of these tags go for as much as $20,000 per tag.

3) Greed; Thats human nature

4) Again: it’s human nature for people to complain about the bad and not talk about the good. It keeps forums like this in business- grin

-

 

[bsnedeker]

I wouldn't go as far as needing the Lorax, weird little freak, sweet 'stache though I don't ranch so take that into account before shredding me but, as a rancher, is your land not fenced? And could not that fence be built tall enough to keep out elk, deer, etc?

Can it be done? Sure.

Can it be done in a cost effective manner? Not really. Think about the size of these ranches and imagine putting an 8+' fence up around the entire thing that is sturdy enough to keep cows, moose, and elk from busting it down. Then imagine the yearly maintenance on such a fence. Basically if it were that easy everyone would be doing it. You do see it occasionally, but it's pretty rare.

 

[TSAMP]

I like this topic alot. I Know this has been mostly geared to out west so far but I live in iowa and constantly hear political ads targeting these poor poor farmers. So and so is taking food off their table!! Farming is hard, but it like many other things in life come with risks and rewards. The Ag community lobby their interest and play the victim just as the city dwelling hunter who can't take his kids out to hunt anymore cause all these greedy land owners have leased it out to rich out of state folks! It goes every which way depending on the hat you wear.

 

[cuerro viejo]

@Deadfall I am guessing there are a lot of us on here that would be willing to help out landowners if given the chance to represent ourselves and have the opportunity to hunt later. My grandparents farmed 2000 acres in Iowa so I know there are ALWAYS 100 things to get done today on a farm. I have put up more miles of fence than I can count. Would your buddy be interested in hosting some of us in trade for work?

A lot of land owners don’t have depredation issues until after seasons such as when wintering herds migrate or spring herds move in.

 

[bsnedeker]

@bsnedeker - the unfortunate thing here is that elk can't speak and have no voice. You state:

"Yeah man, I know a few ranchers and it just blows my mind that most hunters don't seem to give any thought to the position they are in. They have elk crushing their haystacks and pastures that they need to feed their livestock over the winter.."

I think if the elk had a voice, their response would be:

• We were here first and the fact that you, Mr. Rancher, happen to have "money" that we don't have and were able to "Buy" our land or "grazing rights" out from under us does not offset the fact that we still need to eat. Factor that into your business plan, cowboy up (as ranchers seem to boldly say to others) and quit your whining.
• How is it that for ONLY $1.35 per "Animal Unit Month" that you, Mr. Rancher, get the right to graze one cow and one calf or FIVE Sheep all year on THOUSANDS of acres of our land and fodder we need to survive? We have seen entire mountain tops and drainages denuded of vegetation and covered in cow and sheep pies, where we used to have ample native grasses.
  • So for a total cost of only $1,350 per month, Mr. Rancher, you can control THOUSANDS or tens of thousands of acres and graze 1,000 cows + 1,000 calves OR 5,000 sheep and turn formerly lush high mountain pastures and low valley wintering range we used to have into stubble? WE wish we had $1.35 per month for each our elk Cow/Calf "AUMs", because WE would easily pay that to get rid of your some of your AUMs.

Too bad Elk don't have a Lorax to speak for them in front of the BLM and Forest Service, cause for $1.35 they are getting the shaft and if anything has the right to complain, they do.

Best,

JL

I kind of get where you are coming from, but your first bullet point is debatable. Elk were first technically, but they were also nearly extinct about 100 years ago when most of these ranches started. The population has rebounded tremendously thanks to the NA model of conservation. That's great for elk, it's great for hunters, it's not so great for the ranchers that have seen their land overrun with HUGE herds that they weren't seeing even 10-20 years ago.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I like this topic alot. I Know this has been mostly geared to out west so far but I live in iowa and constantly hear political ads targeting these poor poor farmers. So and so is taking food off their table!! Farming is hard, but it like many other things in life come with risks and rewards. The Ag community lobby their interest and play the victim just as the city dwelling hunter who can't take his kids out to hunt anymore cause all these greedy land owners have leased it out to rich out of state folks! It goes every which way depending on the hat you wear.

But if he opened it to everyone, everyone would grip about all the pressure and no animals, inturn it wouldn’t be worth hunting, just like many’s opinion of eastern states public land.

What you are really asking is either exclusive sole access or unrestricted access to any where, hoping that number of hunters doesn’t exceed sustainable harvest numbers, in turn turning the area into a high preference draw area with limited tags and tenth of a precent draw odds.....

now add in the fact the LO has no value for the Wildlife anymore, so they either push state gov to cull on depredation, lowering it even more, or the eliminate any habitat the previously set aside to gain that supplemental lease income.... and those draw odds become even more obscure.

 

[sasquatch]

The big wildlife issue is real simple

The more our population grows virtually unchecked, the less habitat there will be replaced with more urbanization and more farms and such to feed our fat selves.

The more that happens the less “carrying capacity” there will be! The key word is always “carrying capacity” that people don’t really think deep into. As land shrinks so does it’s carrying capacity for what’s left.

This mean less and less habitat and wildlife while on the other side there’s more and more people and hunters!

If it wasn’t for previous generations carving out huge swaths of public lands we wouldn’t even be hunting today.

All we doing now is trying to hold on to what we have and that’s not enough.

Everyone talking here can relate just from their childhoods. I bet all or at least most can remember where they use to hunt this or fish that as a kid, and if they pass it now I bet most will see development. That habitat is gone forever!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Deadfall]

@Deadfall I am guessing there are a lot of us on here that would be willing to help out landowners if given the chance to represent ourselves and have the opportunity to hunt later. My grandparents farmed 2000 acres in Iowa so I know there are ALWAYS 100 things to get done today on a farm. I have put up more miles of fence than I can count. Would your buddy be interested in hosting some of us in trade for work?

He is and isn't. Liability is a issue, there's been problems in past with waivers that set some precedent (I'm still looking into that). Rest of it comes down to the person.

He don't want to let a ton of people on. But if he knows someone...that kind of thing

 

[Deadfall]

That was one of my questions as well...there is a seperate pool of Landowner Preference tags in every draw unit that he should be applying for if he qualifies. I can't remember the number of acres you need to qualify, but one of my friends has a ranch in a Central MT permit-only unit and he and his wife draw every year...he hunts archery exclusively so that is a factor in his success for sure.

Doubt his old ass even knows about it. Archery is out for him. He's old and to busy that time of year

 

[Squincher]

I don't have any problem with landowners getting a tag for them to hunt their own land. My state gives free deer and turkey tags to owners of 40+ acres to use on their land.

 

[Deadfall]

I like this topic alot. I Know this has been mostly geared to out west so far but I live in iowa and constantly hear political ads targeting these poor poor farmers. So and so is taking food off their table!! Farming is hard, but it like many other things in life come with risks and rewards. The Ag community lobby their interest and play the victim just as the city dwelling hunter who can't take his kids out to hunt anymore cause all these greedy land owners have leased it out to rich out of state folks! It goes every which way depending on the hat you wear.

Amen to that. Why I only hunt public land. Even my guiding days were all public land.
Used to own a decent chunk of ground in Missouri. Poaching and stuff was huge issue back there. Suppose it still is.

 

[Broomd]

Some good stuff posted here, but the unfortunate truth is that the idiots have ruined it for the decent guys out there.
We see it every year around here. My neighbor (and good friend) has a beautiful ranch. and the elk are always around during the season. Sadly, he sees constant 1000 yard shooters wounding animals in his fields (trespassing) and there are always whizzing bullets around his property and livestock. It's really become a sad situation for all of us in North Idaho..

btw...Oregon's system of empowering ranchers to sell depred tags is a joke. But hell, its Oregon. Par for the course.

 

[Deadfall]

I wonder how much of that would stop if FWP change their fining policies. Made it a percentage of yearly income and bade it on a 3 strike kinda thing. Would for sure level the field. 125 bucks, what's that, nothing. 30 percent of your yearly income...changes attitude a bit I would think.

Granted everyone goofs up in some way or other at some point. Humans and all. A steady and significant increase in fines based on level of offense I would think curb a bunch of nonsense on every side.

Something I'm looking into anyway.

 

[Antarctica]

lame thread title

 

[Customweld]

It certainly is a simmering issue and it doesn't appear to be easily resolved. I'm sure that most western states are represented in there statehouses much like Idaho. Mostly large landowners, ranchers or agri-business as state representatives. The last 6-8 years, the divide between sportsmen and landowners has only gotten worse. @idelkslayer nailed it in his post above.

 

[Vaultman]

....
What I took away from our conversation. All sides need to do and be better....

No disrespect here, BUT ...

He owns the property. It is not on him to be better.

 

[Deadfall]

lame thread title

Eh...late night babbling.