The morality of poaching

[Broomd]

Doesn’t matter. It’s a law. Laws are perfect and life has no nuance.

Except for traffic violations apparently. Those seem to be ok with everybody. Despite the fact that they have lead to far more injury and death than illegally killing animals for sustenance ever could…

Laws are made to limit freedom. That is a fundamental truth. More people equals more laws which equals less freedom.

Everyone draws an arbitrary ‘line in the sand’ of what laws are insignificant enough to break and what freedoms they are willing to compromise on and what consequences make it no longer worth the trouble. Then we stand around and judge where everyone else has drawn their line, from our personal, infinitesimal point of view.

Speed limits
Bag limits
Masks
Vaccines
Guns

You choose where you will not comply and if you haven’t had to choose yet, you will or your kids will. Because the free world has been dying a slow death since the second that Columbus hit the shore.

Another guy who thinks that game laws are arbitrary and fundamentally unnecessary.

North American fish and game belong to the people of the individual states.. As such they are regulated with state laws to keep some people from wantonly killing and abusing the resource. It reads like some here think that they shouldn't be beholden to such burdensome regulation.

Thankful to not see Idaho listed on some of these user profiles.

 

[bsnedeker]

Doesn’t matter. It’s a law. Laws are perfect and life has no nuance.

Except for traffic violations apparently. Those seem to be ok with everybody. Despite the fact that they have lead to far more injury and death than illegally killing animals for sustenance ever could…

Laws are made to limit freedom. That is a fundamental truth. More people equals more laws which equals less freedom.

Everyone draws an arbitrary ‘line in the sand’ of what laws are insignificant enough to break and what freedoms they are willing to compromise on and what consequences make it no longer worth the trouble. Then we stand around and judge where everyone else has drawn their line, from our personal, infinitesimal point of view.

Speed limits
Bag limits
Masks
Vaccines
Guns

You choose where you will not comply and if you haven’t had to choose yet, you will or your kids will. Because the free world has been dying a slow death since the second that Columbus hit the shore.

Your continued attempts to equate speeding tickets to illegally taking game animals are sad. I know you don't like the Bowmar comparison...perhaps you should stop using his talking points?

 

[WhatToHunt]

It's actually an interesting discussion, at least for those willing to contemplate the morality and what ifs.
Exceptionally rare nowadays for an absolute need to poach based on survival alone. But if so, then yes it would be moral but still illegal.
I don't think the speeding analogy is that out of place. If it's used in an exceptionally rare instance of absolute need for survival, then it would be moral but still illegal.
For the record, if Bowmar was speeding while poaching both would be illegal and immoral.

 

[Rob5589]

Fair enough statement.

I guess the best way I can explain it is that I don’t really care if somebody shoots a deer on their ground because they are genuinely trying to fill the freezer. I live in an area where there is an absolute abundance of deer. If I was standing at the pearly gates, I don’t think this would be much of an issue for St.Peter

With that being said, I only archery hunt. I spent about 16 days in the stand this season and got 1 lousy doe. I would be a pretty shitty “poacher”. If I needed meat I would be far better off getting a second job than trying to shoot something.

Happy Hunting

I'm thinking that would/should be most folks.

 

[DenverCountryBoy]

In this day, there is no justification for poaching.

We are in an unprecedented labor shortage. Work has never been easier to get.

And why are the pro poaching folks focused on trophy species? Are all the invasive species gone and "trash" fish caught? Is every collared dove, starling, and hog removed off the landscape?

No excuse.

 

[pk_]

Another guy who thinks that game laws are arbitrary and fundamentally unnecessary.

North American fish and game belong to the people of the individual states.. As such they are regulated with state laws to keep some people from wantonly killing and abusing the resource. It reads like some here think that they shouldn't be beholden to such burdensome regulation.

Thankful to not see Idaho listed on some of these user profiles.

Another guy who lacks reading comprehension or the intellectual bandwidth to hold a real conversation.

That is NOT AT ALL what I said.

I said that people create their own arbitrary lines for breaking laws of all kinds that they either don’t agree with or don’t care to observe… not that the LAWS are arbitrary(that’s a different discussion) and I certainly didn’t say they were UNNECESSARY or that I personally shouldn’t be ‘beholden’ to them. In fact I believe I said they are becoming more necessary every day as populations expand.

If you want to disagree, that’s fine. That’s what discussions are for. But pick out something I actually said, quote it correctly and let’s talk. Just pointing your finger and implying that I am a poacher is pretty juvenile.

Your continued attempts to equate speeding tickets to illegally taking game animals are sad. I know you don't like the Bowmar comparison...perhaps you should stop using his talking points?

I have never heard the man speak. But it sounds like you are his biggest fan since you can’t keep him out of your mouth.

Perhaps you should try explaining how breaking a law, is not breaking a law? Or why you get to choose which laws are ok to break and which ones aren’t? Because that is what my post was about. Not that breaking any of them is ok, as you are implying.

Is it by the severity of the ticket? So does that mean that poaching 100 years ago was not as ‘morally’ wrong as it is today because the consequences(generally speaking) in most places were much less severe?

I don’t poach. I don’t condone poaching. I also don’t condone speeding or jaywalking. I am a pretty by the book person, sometimes to a fault. I have never had a negative experience with an LEO. Worst game violation I have ever received was a written warning for not having my license on my person it was in my truck and I felt like crap about it.

But I just can’t see thinking that someone that is in such a hard way that they need to shoot a deer in their backyard to give their family a good meal is a completely immoral person. We can argue about their decisions that lead them there and if it was truly necessary for them to kill that deer for their family to survive. But perception is reality and if that is what he believes, it is HIS reality.

Saying that I understand that, does not mean that I agree with it or that I would choose to do it…

 

[Smallie]

I hate poachers that take animals for the trophy/ greed aspect but I had a good conversation with my Dad during the meat shortage in the grocery stores during the beginning of the Covid lockdown. We only take a couple deer a year and did not foresee anything like that happening. Our property is in a rural and pretty poor area and we ate game meat or fish pretty much everyday and the freezer was getting empty quick. Only one grocery store in town and it was wiped clean for a couple weeks. Ended up buying a pig from a local farm to help them out. Luckily the shortage didn't last too long but it really opened our eyes to the possibility of a worse situation in the future and what we would do. And taking a deer to survive was definitely on the table if it really came down to it. I am sure locals that were worse off than us were taking game to feed their families at that time or eating their own livestock. Take financial situation out of the picture if the grid system went down and there isn't any food to buy in a store what good is that money then? You would do what you have to do to eat

 

[Broomd]

Another guy who lacks reading comprehension or the intellectual bandwidth to hold a real conversation.

That is NOT AT ALL what I said.

I said that people create their own arbitrary lines for breaking laws of all kinds that they either don’t agree with or don’t care to observe… not that the LAWS are arbitrary(that’s a different discussion) and I certainly didn’t say they were UNNECESSARY or that I personally shouldn’t be ‘beholden’ to them. In fact I believe I said they are becoming more necessary every day as populations expand.

If you want to disagree, that’s fine. That’s what discussions are for. But pick out something I actually said, quote it correctly and let’s talk. Just pointing your finger and implying that I am a poacher is pretty juvenile.
...

Laughable, as if we can't literally look up and read what you posted here.
I had to read it twice just to ascertain that you weren't flexing some satirical thing.

 

[Coldtrail]

An interesting spin to this is that in my home state people still take their kids out of school for the sucker and Red horse run on the rivers, both fish being virtually unregulated. Similarly snowshoe hare are unlimited bag and open all year long. I grew up eating far too many meals of all of the above (they don't taste like lobster) but it was easy meat & pretty much everyone took advantage of it using varied methods both legal and some questionably illegal.

What I find current day is many people of that generation or geographic area still stockpile rough fish and try to get their hands on a hare or two, but more out of tradition than "need". If you grew up on the stuff it's a part of your life and almost a treat in the modern day.

I suspect the people taking big game for their "survival" are doing it for the same reason, they grew up doing it and it's part of the lifestyle, "feeding the family" just makes it a better sell than "I'm from a family of poachers, and this is what we have always done & will continue to do". Plus, as a kid growing up in that environment I can tell you that the opinion of being "closed season venison backstrap and bear summer sausage poor" wasn't really viewed as being poor, just a game hog or lazy. The exception being if you were a large family that owned some land and were dealing with a catastrophic situation you would be cut some slack if you tapped into the govt's meat market.

As has always been and will be the case, poverty is in the eye of the beholder, there is a big difference between not being able to make the payments on the Silverado and having life's curve balls thrown your way with family health, job loss, etc. Venison backstrap poor is not nearly the same as "canned sucker & hare patties poor".

 

[pk_]

Laughable, as if we can't literally look up and read what you posted here.
I had to read it twice just to ascertain that you weren't flexing some satirical thing.

Yes you absolutely can and I hope you read it a third time and perhaps you will understand.

Please do me a favor and quote me where I said that I support poaching or that I personally don’t follow game laws and I will apologize.

My posts have been specifically about the bias and hypocrisy in most people’s moral compass. I’m not excluding myself either, I just happen to be aware of it. I think it’s probably impossible to go through life and not break a law of some sort, but most find a way to minimize or justify it in their case. I was simply pointing out observations in human behavior.

At no time did I EVER say that breaking any law, whatsoever, was ok. Just pointing out that we all do, to some extent…

I am really not sure what there is to disagree with.

 

[Broomd]

Yes you absolutely can and I hope you read it a third time and perhaps you will understand.

Please do me a favor and quote me where I said that I support poaching or that I personally don’t follow game laws and I will apologize.

My posts have been specifically about the bias and hypocrisy in most people’s moral compass. I’m not excluding myself either, I just happen to be aware of it. I think it’s probably impossible to go through life and not break a law of some sort, but most find a way to minimize or justify it in their case. I was simply pointing out observations in human behavior.

At no time did I EVER say that breaking any law, whatsoever, was ok. Just pointing out that we all do, to some extent…

I am really not sure what there is to disagree with.

You need to consider a career in politics.
Whatever the case, last words here; won't waste more time bantering with you.
Folks can read and decide for themselves your moral equivalence inferred with poaching, speeding, traffic laws, etc.

Stay in FL, please!

 

[NickKreutz]

When I'm getting down to the wire and thinking I'm not going to be able to tag out, and the long winter of no elk or deer meat, my mind doesn't typically go to poaching. Its going to other critters that are abundant but still within the law to take.

For example, there is no limit on beavers where I'm at. They are considered a nuisance animal. There has been many times I've been in the deer stand not seeing any deer moving around thinking about how many beavers I'd be able to stack up to fill that freezer haha.

 

[Huntindog45]

Almost every single friggin one of us breaks the law every day while driving.…

you are not taking from me when you break the speed limit. You are not taking a resource that belongs to all of us. the speeding analogy is just stupid.

 

[Coldtrail]

When I'm getting down to the wire and thinking I'm not going to be able to tag out, and the long winter of no elk or deer meat, my mind doesn't typically go to poaching. Its going to other critters that are abundant but still within the law to take.

For example, there is no limit on beavers where I'm at. They are considered a nuisance animal. There has been many times I've been in the deer stand not seeing any deer moving around thinking about how many beavers I'd be able to stack up to fill that freezer haha.

I'll refrain from the many beaver references that just entered my brain, but seriously smoked beaver & beaver sausage are one of the holiday treats for our family.

 

[Billy Goat]

The speeding analogy is stupid, but how many have been killed by poachers versus speeders? Or vehicle infractions that don't amount to anything 99,999 times out of 100k.


Deer are held in high regard in the west, not so much in the east. I have been handed Dcap permits to kill as many as possible.
That's where the question about rabbits came from. Had a nursery that was getting rabbit damage, they couldn't give a permit to kill rabbits out of season, so they gave a kill permit for deer. Said if anyone asks, just tell them you are shooting deer at night.

 

[Huntin Fool]

The speed limit comparison is a far reach. I think going a few mph over the speed limit would be more comparable to forgetting your license at home, no where near the same thing as shooting a big game animal you don’t have a license for.

 

[Rich M]

40,000 people died due to dumbasses on the roads in 2020. How many deer were poached and why do you-all not care about 40,000 people dying? The loss of a "big buck" is more important. We've become very callous as a society.

There are a list of celebrities who were cause with game violations to shoot big deer to help them bring home a paycheck. Folks still worship them as opposed to recognizing them as the poaching scum that they are. We talk about em on here from time to time - folks still follow them and the sponsors still pay em. How does that reflect your stance on poaching?

 

[Super tag]

40,000 people died due to dumbasses on the roads in 2020. How many deer were poached and why do you-all not care about 40,000 people dying? The loss of a "big buck" is more important. We've become very callous as a society.

There are a list of celebrities who were cause with game violations to shoot big deer to help them bring home a paycheck. Folks still worship them as opposed to recognizing them as the poaching scum that they are. We talk about em on here from time to time - folks still follow them and the sponsors still pay em. How does that reflect your stance on poaching?

Nobody is minimizing the tragic number of people who die on the roads each year, this thread is about poaching, not the number of people that die on the roads each year. I doubt that anyone on this site values the life of a buck more than a human being, that’s pretty harsh.

I am one that doesn’t support the “hunters” on TV, You tube, etc. but how do you know they poach?

 

[Carolina elk]

To me….poaching is shooting that 10 point from the road, cutting his antlers and taking off.

Taking a doe to eat, in an isolated area, most likely on private land…that’s not really poaching IMHO.

Top example is morally wrong, second example is just illegal because the government says so…

Location, circumstance and intent are paramount to the discussion. On your own land, friends or a close family member and in an area with a surplus of game, then I have no problem with it if it is to eat. Shooting a trophy bull from an airplane for horns on state or federal land for example is definitely a no no in my mind.

 

[WhatToHunt]

If the speeding analogy doesn't work, that's alright. The analogies are only to compare morality from what the OP was pointing out. The two offenses don't need to be equally awful.
Another analogy could be a self employed person who receives cash for their labor but manages to not claim that income and thus avoids paying taxes on that money. It's illegal and takes money from the government which could benefit the community at large, which is taking a resource from the masses. Many folks wouldn't find this immoral.
Again, not equal to poaching. Just furthering the discussion from the morality aspect.