Trump Admin will ask Congress to eliminate USGS Biological Resources Division

Well in contrast, if the system of lowering taxes for the past 50 years has not worked, then why don’t we try another way? The graphs that are shown on .gov about the debt to income ratio clearly show that the debt to income ratio was declining until 1980 which is incidentally when the first Reagan tax cuts occurred. I have no interest in the Eat the Rich movement. It just doesn’t make sense to me why if we are in the dire situation that we wouldn’t use every tool available to us. That means cutting spending and increasing taxes.

I totally understand your sentiment about the East, Midwest, and South. I understand how they think from firsthand experience. If I didn’t have public land, or had minimal levels of public land that were overrun by people, I wouldn’t support it either.

So to be devils advocate, if these programs were to be cut, would people here support putting that money into the states to make up for what we are losing if they are to be removed? I truly believe that these types of programs have a massive impact on ungulate conservation. I think we all (on this forum) can agree that is something we want to continue funding,

Non-enumerated powers of the federal government need to be handed back to the states ASAP as the founders intended. Read the Federalist Papers from the late 1780s and you'll think Jay, Hamilton, and Madison had crystal balls.

States and counties can/should fund what their citizens deem important.

How do they deem what's important? Vote on single item levies/referendums ANNUALLY to ask if the citizens are willing to pay for them. If they aren't willing...they don't get funded.

Compare that to the legalized extortion model that's existed since 1913:

To secure funding for a local project, or shiny new alphabet agency, your rep/senator 2000 miles away in DC needs to convince other reps/senators and their lobbyist handlers on whatever committee they sit on to direct money from a general or vaguely earmarked fund that millions of taxpayers pay into under the threat of arrest (majority of which who dgaf about the project). They do this in exchange for agreeing to support other projects that their own electorate dgaf about down the road, many of which get shoved into a bill with dozens of other non related items that the same electorate WOULD NEVER support.

People call it politics, I call it extortion, robbery, etc. Folks argue against the simplified model claiming wide swaths of the nation would be left forgotten and destitute...these people need to go for a road-trip.

Libertarian rant on Rokslide wasn't on my Resurrection Day bingo card, but it's a hill worth dying on 🤣
 
A side note:
In the 90s, the USBureau of Mines was unfunded and the USGeological Survey was turned into US Biological Survey because the USGS had funding and the couldn't sell a US Biological Survey.

I don't oppose a Biological Survey but it's time this lie is exterminated. A little honesty in government would be a nice change.
 
A side note:
In the 90s, the USBureau of Mines was unfunded and the USGeological Survey was turned into US Biological Survey because the USGS had funding and the couldn't sell a US Biological Survey.

I don't oppose a Biological Survey but it's time this lie is exterminated. A little honesty in government would be a nice change.
what do you mean the USGS turned into the US Biological Service? the USGS is still dominantly a geological survey
 
Through the 70s, 80s and early 90s, I worked closely with the USGS and it's staff. They handled mapping and we handled mineral resources. By the 90's their personel could not report any economic findings. They were limited to environmental damage. As my friends retired and left, watched less and less involvement in minerals and more of a focus on academic pursuits. They funded mapping programs but I saw very limited field participation from the USGS.

Correspondingly as economically focused geologists retired, geology departments hired academic and environmenally focused geologists. Exploration geologists and mining geologists became rare. The economic focus diminished as did mining in the US. The USGS diminished to a fantom in the mineral industry.

I think another component of this evolution started with Clinton's modification of the anti-trust laws and the bigger companies absorbed the mass of mineral companies and their historic exploration.
 
I’m in the tax billionaires crowd personally. I understand not everyone agrees with that but programs that we all care about get cut when we could tax billionaires while cutting taxes for people like all of us that don’t make that money. A billion dollars is an absolutely insane amount of money. Also if you look at the way the pattern in the debt to income ratio, it’s clear that the debt to income ratio was declining all the way until the first Reagan tax cuts. I was not alive when those things occurred so I have no way to argue it, but looking at the data from .gov shows the debt to income ratio was declining all the way until 1980. It’s very odd to look at the data and see the pattern and see people still arguing for tax cuts for billionaires, but I wasn’t alive so I don’t understand the context.
I am not sure if you understand what a billionaire is. A billionaire is someone who has a billion dollars in assets at a given point in time. Meaning they have stocks, property, etc which is worth a billion or more dollars. You are not taxed on this until you sell it and recognize your gain. There is no gain until it is sold because nobody knows what it will be worth when you sell it. Technically it's just paper that could be worth zero some day.

There is currently roughly 900 billionaires in the United States. We are running a $2t deficit every year. Just to cancel the deficit with money from only billionaires they would have to pay over $2b dollars per year in taxes each. The fact is they don't get paid or sell enough of their assets to pay that tax bill. Only 250 of US billionaires are worth over $4.4b which means 650 of them would be broke in two years. Not to mention the economy would crash including a complete collapse of the stock market if this were to happen which would break everyone else down the line who has money invested.

This is only the basics. There is much more to it but I don't feel like writing a novel. My point is anyone who is spouting the BS of just tax the billionaires to cover the out of control spending either knows it won't work and are just trying to villianize the majority against the minority or they have no idea how the economy works. You have no right to the money they have earned anymore than I have right to yours.
 
A billionaire is someone who has a billion dollars in assets at a given point in time. Meaning they have stocks, property, etc which is worth a billion or more dollars. You are not taxed on this until you sell it and recognize your gain. There is no gain until it is sold because nobody knows what it will be worth when you sell it. Technically it's just paper that could be worth zero some day.
While true, they do take loans against those assets for liquid cash which are not taxable income. Not to mention being able to legally shuffle things around indefinitely to pay nothing or the minimum amount possible. All of us would do the same if we had the means, but I think the average person is looking to remove some of these legal methods of avoiding tax on the wealthiest individuals and corporations. Just like banning congress and senate from trading stocks.
 
Voting for what "matters to the people" regarding wildlife and conservation is working out great in Colorado, just ask the pro-wolf, anti-hunting crowd. Its unfortunate that as a nation we have collectively decided to move away from science, education and the pursuit of knowledge and truth as a common denominator in governing. Of the few things the government pays for science and education should be at the top of the list. But the less educated the population is, on any given matter, the easier they are to manipulate with rhetoric so it makes sense to target.
 
While true, they do take loans against those assets for liquid cash which are not taxable income. Not to mention being able to legally shuffle things around indefinitely to pay nothing or the minimum amount possible. All of us would do the same if we had the means, but I think the average person is looking to remove some of these legal methods of avoiding tax on the wealthiest individuals and corporations. Just like banning congress and senate from trading stocks.
Exactly. If they can use their stock as collateral, then it has value. Additionally, people that get around taxes by donating to charities (particularly their own) that do not spend the amount of money required yearly just seems like money laundering to me. But there appears to be 0 consequence for doing those things as Elon and his charity/nonprofit have done that the last two years with what appears to be no consequence.
 
Does BRD contract out to any of the military bases? Some bases have great wildlife management depts and some awesome hunting.

Right now we don’t have much of a Congress. Johnson won’t even bring a bill up for a vote unless the Whitehouse wants it. I doubt that the BRD budget is specifically mentioned in the spending bill. But If it is, would probably not be voted in without Whitehouse approval. Most federal Wildlife, fishery management plans have either been already dismantled or on the chopping block by Executive Order.

As far as hunting in Texas is a concerned, I always thought of Texas as one big “zoo” with a high fence. The repub Feds have been trying for years to pawn off Waterfowl Production Areas to the Northern States. The States’ reply has been: “we are the hatchery so you will need to pay us”. That shut them up until now. The repub Feds have also tried to defund the Conservation Reserve program (CRP) which is important for nesting areas surrounding the potholes on private lands. CRP is also critical for managing big game and all other wildlife on private lands. The Texans haven’t said much about putting our tax dollars into their own pockets from their waterfowl, and private land big game hunts on CRP.

I will write my Senator and House rep about BRD. I am sure they both would want to keep the programs.
 
I think the average person is looking to remove some of these legal methods of avoiding tax on the wealthiest individuals and corporations.
That would require the government to put in place a tax such as a federal sales tax with one rate for all which will never happen because then the politicians have to relinquish power to change tax code to benefit certain industries/individuals.
like banning congress and senate from trading stocks.
This would be great but the people making money off the stocks would have to vote to make it law. Good luck.
While true, they do take loans against those assets for liquid cash which are not taxable income. Not to mention being able to legally shuffle things around indefinitely to pay nothing or the minimum amount possible.
Then they are paying capitol gains plus interest to pay it back. How else would they pay the loan back?

The point is you can steal every dollar from every billionaire in the country and the problem still exists. It's a spending problem. Taxes can never keep up with the deficit or pay back the debt. If you only care about yourself at this moment in time then fair enough we don't need to cut spending. If you care about future generations then there is no other answer than cutting spending.
 
Through the 70s, 80s and early 90s, I worked closely with the USGS and it's staff. They handled mapping and we handled mineral resources. By the 90's their personel could not report any economic findings. They were limited to environmental damage. As my friends retired and left, watched less and less involvement in minerals and more of a focus on academic pursuits. They funded mapping programs but I saw very limited field participation from the USGS.

Correspondingly as economically focused geologists retired, geology departments hired academic and environmenally focused geologists. Exploration geologists and mining geologists became rare. The economic focus diminished as did mining in the US. The USGS diminished to a fantom in the mineral industry.

I think another component of this evolution started with Clinton's modification of the anti-trust laws and the bigger companies absorbed the mass of mineral companies and their historic exploration.
Not sure what you mean by mining has diminished in this country, gold production went up like a rocket from 1980 into the 2000s. If you are in the exploration/mining space than I'm sure you know why.

And for the last ten years or so one of the major objectives of the USGS is supporting critical mineral research and aiding industry, I have worked with them in the field on rare metal exploration.
 
That would require the government to put in place a tax such as a federal sales tax with one rate for all which will never happen because then the politicians have to relinquish power to change tax code to benefit certain industries/individuals.

This would be great but the people making money off the stocks would have to vote to make it law. Good luck.

Then they are paying capitol gains plus interest to pay it back. How else would they pay the loan back?

The point is you can steal every dollar from every billionaire in the country and the problem still exists. It's a spending problem. Taxes can never keep up with the deficit or pay back the debt. If you only care about yourself at this moment in time then fair enough we don't need to cut spending. If you care about future generations then there is no other answer than cutting spending.
All valid points, the foxes aren't going to let themselves out of the henhouse.
 
Hey everyone,

Hope everyone is having a good Easter. Just wanted to put this up before it passed my mind. Currently, the budget proposal that the administration is going to put forward will eliminate the USGS Biological Resources Division.

So would this impact the wildlife you like to chase? In particular, the cooperative fish and wildlife research units and the northern Rocky Mountain science center are housed within the BRD. The Coop units provide valuable expertise and integrate federal scientists within universities to help graduate students and state agencies with projects that impact wildlife. In some states, NM for example, most research on ungulates is funneled through the coop units. Many of these units have websites that show what they are currently working on so you can go get an idea of what research is being done by your state’s unit. Some examples include, the Elk/Mexican Gray wolf project in NM, migration work in WY and across the west, and statewide bighorn sheep and mountain goat research in Montana. To be transparent, I am currently advised by a member of the cooperative research unit system, so I do have a personal stake in this. These units bring in $3 of funding for every $1 they are appropriated.

Similarly, the northern Rocky Mountain science center helps with many different projects involving ungulates across the western United States. I am not fully informed on what the NOROCK is currently involved in or I would provide examples of that as well.

In summary, I feel as those these functions that the BRD provide are extremely beneficial to the sportsman community. The research being done within the USGS is used consistently to inform management actions across the western that benefit your ungulate populations. Without the USGS, there would not have been a cohesive effort to map ungulate migrations across the west like there has been. Please reach out to your representatives and tell them you oppose dismantling the BRD. Thank you for reading all the way through and if there are any questions that I can answer, I would be happy to do so.
Does the BRD do anything good that the States cannot do themselves better?
 
From a Newberg post


"I had heard rumors that things at the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study Team (IGBST) were starting to unravel with the impacts of the "Government Efficiency" mandates taking hold at every level of Federal agencies.

I first was introduced to the work of the IGBST as one of five Montanans Governor Racicot placed on the Governor's Grizzly Bear Roundtable. That was back in 1998. Five people from each state, MT, ID, WY worked with USFWS and IGBST to craft the Conservation Strategy for eventual delisting of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem subpopulation of grizzly bears.

The Roundtable met quarterly for three years, with the eventual product being the current Management Plan for GYE grizzlies. Following that, my friend Arnie Dood, who was the MT endangered species coordinator at FWP, roped me into serving on Montana's committee for our grizzly bear management plan.

It was pretty exciting to see the USFWS petition the GYE grizzlies for delisting, twice. It was equally disappointing to see a judge rescind that delisting ruling, both times. I have always held hope that eventually we would get there. The science on these bears that is contained among the scientists of the IGBST is the best in the world. They are the smartest grizzly bear people I know.

When that IGBST group gave their case of how the bears are recovered and they worked to support the delisting effort, I was stunned that a judge would overrule their science in favor of supposed legal technicalities or "hired scientists" of the litigators. Yet, such is how messed up our legal process is for the ESA, a much bigger symptom of problems in well-intended legislation that needs to be addressed.

Roll that forward to this week. Now, coming out of the Northern Rocky Mountain Science Center here in Bozeman, the place that houses the IGBST and many other important Federal science projects, is the news that the IGBST has been impacted due to "DOGE" efforts. That is going to remove any possibility of grizzly bear delisting.

Some may call that claim, the claim that this will eliminate any chance of grizzly delisting in the Lower 48, hyperbole. It's not. It is fact. Those familiar with the ESA, the monitoring requirements for species population and habitat criteria is a basic necessity for delisting. That monitoring on grizzlies is coordinated by the IGBST. A delisting will never stand up to legal scrutiny without the basics of population and habitat monitoring. That's just a fact, proven by how hard it has been to demonstrate to the courts those monitoring safety nets that protect a species once it is delisted. In the case of grizzly bears, coordination of that monitoring is done by the IGBST, and as such, once that group of scientists is dismantled, so goes the monitoring mechanisms necessary for delisting under the ESA.

Like many others, the number of hours/days I've spent working on grizzly bears/grizzly bear management/grizzly bear ESA issues, is more than I want to think about. All of that was out of my interest in this amazing animal and seeing it removed from the ESA, whether we had hunting seasons or not. Seeing this news, it seems that the effort of so many, will yield no results. The likelihood of grizzly delisting is close to zero without the IGBST and the talent within that group.

The IGBST is a handful of scientist who have made their life's work around the study of grizzlies. With that talent/knowledge pool being such a small group of people with collective centuries of studying these bears, it's not like you can post a job opening and fill that talent loss in a month or two. The IGBST has been our biggest advocate towards the effort of getting these bears delisted.

Here is a link to a story that gives a bit more commentary to the issue. I'm not a fan of the header, as it seems that header was chosen merely for the effect of putting Trump and Musk in the headlines - https://wyofile.com/trump-and-musks...ng-historic-yellowstone-grizzly-science-team/

To me, this topic could easily stand on its own without wrapping it in a lens of politics. DOGE has consequences. Using a hatchet when a scalpel would be far more efficient and effective, results in some serious damage. If this unwinding of the IGBST happens, the future possibility of delisting grizzly bears in the Lower 48 disappears with it. That would suck, not just for the bears, but for us.

I'll be contacting my delegation to see if it is possible to keep this Team together."
Working on a problem since 1998 and still nothing‘s changed. I’d say they’re usefulness is overstated.
 
I have seen grants but no field work. Rare earths exploration is an interesting exercise when we don't have smelters to process the ore. China built the process facilities especially on base metals and now won't ship the products back.

You may have more recent exposure in AK but there hasn't been anything prrmitted in the lower 48 for over ten years and underground targets are not even on the table. The reserve base for industry continues to decline and the last ad I saw on tv said we were about to run out of gold. That one I don't believe but other than deep copper exploration and minor RE mapping I don't see anything moving in Montana.

When I last worked in AK, I was told that only 5% of the districts had production potential. That was in 2003.

Granted I am old but after 50 years in the industry, I still have contacts.
 
I have seen grants but no field work. Rare earths exploration is an interesting exercise when we don't have smelters to process the ore. China built the process facilities especially on base metals and now won't ship the products back.

You may have more recent exposure in AK but there hasn't been anything prrmitted in the lower 48 for over ten years and underground targets are not even on the table. The reserve base for industry continues to decline and the last ad I saw on tv said we were about to run out of gold. That one I don't believe but other than deep copper exploration and minor RE mapping I don't see anything moving in Montana.

When I last worked in AK, I was told that only 5% of the districts had production potential. That was in 2003.

Granted I am old but after 50 years in the industry, I still have contacts.
Canada has REE smelting capabilities, but probably doesn't help now that we have cast them off as an enemy. We would get tariffed going in and tariffed going out 😅

Agree US hasn't made great exploration progress last decade, not much to put into production, except Anglo hopes to get Silicon into production this year.

Getting off topic. But small industry I'm sure we have common friends. Cheers
 
Canada has REE smelting capabilities, but probably doesn't help now that we have cast them off as an enemy. We would get tariffed going in and tariffed going out 😅

Agree US hasn't made great exploration progress last decade, not much to put into production, except Anglo hopes to get Silicon into production this year.

Getting off topic. But small industry I'm sure we have common friends. Cheers
Wonder how much Chinese ore “went” through those smelters to avoid tariffs.
 
Wonder how much Chinese ore “went” through those smelters to avoid tariffs.
My guess would be close to zero, as part of China's retaliation has been to cut us off from those "strategic" metals, and they already have the lion's share of both the resources and the smelters, and the entire world to sell to other than the US
 
Well, here is where the rubber meets the road. Cuts to the federal deficit must be made ASAP and DOGE is helping get that done...but even that isn't nearly enough. Cuts in and elimination efforts of every single federal agency and federal cost line item must be made, it's as simple as that. The alternative, is the country defaults on its debt at some point in the next 4-5 years....then the bottom drops out of everything based on the "dollar". Nobody will bail us out, nobody to buy further debt....the USA is bankrupt and a severe depression begins and lasts much longer than the last one. Very few will be working and most will lose everything they own. You won't have to worry about ungulate migrations, grizzly bear population, deer population or any other game population....because people everywhere will be killing every animal in sight just to feed their families. There will be no govt bailouts for anyone when the country is broke. Go speak to the few left that lived thru the 30's. There is no more time left to kick the can down the road.....the rubber has met the road. Abolish every agency that does not show that it can support itself. If you think the Californians are invading your state now, just wait.

Great, so make deep cuts across the board (including defense, given the piece of our budget pie it represents), and raise taxes across the board. Let’s accept some rough years as a country and get this debt paid down. You don’t trim your budget when you’re in debt, then work less since you’re spending less on smokes. The debt/deficit argument for any of this is moot because neither is actually being addressed at all.


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Does the BRD do anything good that the States cannot do themselves better?
Well if the state is unwilling or unable to fund those positions that directly benefit them, I would say the BRD does do it better. If you all are willing to bring these people into your state agencies then sure, but if your agency is telling you how much these folks help them with wildlife conservation and people willingly turn a blind eye to it and dismantle it without finding a way to fund it through their states, then their own wildlife management is going to suffer. Are we all as hunters willing to pay more into our agencies to bring these people into the fold when the current system spreads it across to the nonhunting public that also recreates and cares about wildlife management issues?
 
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