The Problem With Hunting Clothing Brands Today

[mxgsfmdpx]

Please make some early - mid-season merino pants with some stretch, durability, and vents. Quiet, no crotch funk after 3 days, and can withstand some abuse.

Lightweight merino and true durability never go hand in hand unfortunately.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I dont have much experience with them, but the few pieces of stone glacier i own have kind of fit this bill, and it isnt the most expensive stuff out there.
The new headwall jacket is a pretty good performer. Not sure if their praxis pants are similar but i am guessing they are.

I do see some of the pther brands offering solids now, which is good. I agree camo is pretty useless in most if not all hunting situations. There is so much more to hunting success than camo.

I have a ton of respect for the guys that built the brand. But, they are now owned/controlled by a PE company and all of the guys that built it, and whom I respect, are gone. Will be interesting to see where they are at in a few years.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Lightweight merino and true durability never go hand in hand unfortunately.

I wish merino could be made more durable for pants, but like I said before you are correct. The way to increase the durability is to blend it with nylon or poly or something else, which negates all of the benefits of the merino, mainly smell.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Elaborating on fit, specifically pants, I'd like to see more SKU's in a pant line than multiple lines with different cuts. Short, Regular, Tall lengths in common waist sizes with something like a regular and athletic cut option. Not sure if that's asking for too much, it might not make sense business wise.

It's frustrating to find a pant with specs that are perfect but don't fit, then another pant from that company does fit with less ideal specs. They come out with a new pant line, now I have no idea if it'll fit or not. This has led me to not trying other pant lines and just sticking with what I know fits.

Also, cuff thumbholes are overrated and excessive. Now the sleeves are 2" longer than they need to be and all that bunches up around the wrist. It's not that hard to grab the cuff to keep it in place when putting on another layer...FL's design is terrible. The GoHunt Approach thumbhole design is fantastic though, I don't mind the thumbholes on that piece.

Great feeback. I think minimum order quantities with tall sizing is tough until you get to a certain size, but I'll absolutely keep that in mind.

 

[Kronos]

I typically find brands that cater to mountaineering and other outdoor pursuits work just fine. They’ve been in the performance apparel market a time long and have the fit and features dialed in. I skip the fancy camo so I can use it on the ski hill.

If you want to be at the tip of the spear for base layer clothing that caters to hunting… look at infusing your synthetic fibers with silver for odor control. It doesn’t wash out and works pretty well. Maybe contact Alpine Fit in Alaska for some collaboration or consulting if needed.

 

[wnelson14]

I didn’t read through everyone’s response but I would sacrifice some sound, fit, function, and price on the clothing I buy that doesn’t pay people to market their stuff.
Same reason I would rather buy a Argali knife vs MKC. I’m so over the “Marketing” companies and I’m not even on social media besides here and YouTube.

I would rather buy a piece of clothing that is “good enough” from a grass roots mom and pop company, then a piece that goes above and beyond from a marketing company. But I’m also not doing 5-10 days hunts currently.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

^^^ i agree that maybe something that has some sort of internal/integrated sizing such as what SG does with their pant lines or what Prana does with the zions with an integrated belt. Hip vents are great for dumping heat, but to me the biggest area of concern on pants is the crotch or lack of one. If i pull a pair pf pants on that fits perfect but then bind up my sack and make it feel like i am a kardashian with a g-string on, thats a no go. Some manufacturers cut the critch and butt so tight i am not sure its dudes making clothes for dudes.

Regarding thumbholes, i agree they are pretty silly, but i do some times when they can be helpful, esp with a grid fleece lined jacket, those can really pull on the under layer. But the design needs to be pretty simple so there is not a lot of extra material on the base layer.
The design of the cuff on the forloh all clima jacket was surprising for its extra protection and also comfort, having the extra length on the outside of the hand side was actually really thought out in my opinion. The base does not need that design tho!

 

[fatlander]

I think the problem with clothing is people are so variable, pegging fit for everyone is almost (if not completely) impossible.

I also have this saying about hunting clothing. . . If someone is wearing brand x everything from underwear to rain gear, they’re either bought and paid for or they drank the marketing koolaid.

No one makes the best everything, period.

People all have different preferences. I really dislike merino for warm and dry weather. I run really hot and sweat a ton. Merino doesn’t dry nearly as fast as synthetics, leaving me wet and clammy for days on end. I hunt with guys that love merino because they don’t sweat like me. The perfect kit for me isn’t the perfect kit for them.

My biggest rub with one big name hunting company is the drop in quality but increase in price. I’ve got some stuff from Sitka that’s over a decade old with hundreds of field days that is in exponential better shape than things a fraction of the age, with a fraction of field days, that cost exponentially more than the old stuff. Seems that’s the way when private equity gets involved. . . Decrease quality, increase marketing budget, and increase price. I’m fine with paying more for better. I’m getting kind of tired of paying for cool marketing videos and crappy products.


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[Ramem7mm]

This is an interesting topic since there are so many companies already producing products that people are familiar with however as a fan of your products and company I have a few comments. First though is that there are very likely many people like myself that are completely ignorant to all the backstories and companies motivations to sell products. They only see the adds and trends which if many people aren't following up on all this stuff its difficult to keep track. Many people go to work, have families kids that have baseball, soccer, football, etc. so to follow Company X and what they are doing and who they buy their stuff from etc. might not appeal to the average person and they buy the product because they thought it looked good or it was on sale.

It seems that the true intent is to sell to the not average person that will appreciate the products and company which may or may not decrease the audience you want to reach.

Anyways as to my opinions in hunting apparel.

No. 01. Durability - If its supposed to be a waterproof jacket then it needs to be waterproof and not be fragile. If its going to be a hiking pant then brush etc, cant be tearing it apart after going through the thick stuff on the first trip.

No. 02 Fit - It doesn't need to be so tight that its cutting off circulation but the baggy clothes are not good either. I wear a lot of Kuiu products and one of the main reasons is they fit me. Their store is 15 minutes away and I can try the products on or exchange them pretty easy.

No. 03 - Function - The products need to do as they are intended. Waterproof means waterproof, cool means cool, and warm means warm. If they do that then that's half the battle.

A simple line up of some of the basics is probably all that is needed. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Brad@Argali]

If you hit it out of the park on (in this order; function, fit, durability, quiet) then you can name your price, IMO. I understand the guys who are most concerned with price, I once was myself. The market is saturated with cheaper options that will work decently. A high end piece of clothing that does everything I want and lasts a long time is worth the investment.

As has been stated above, I agree that a company really only needs to make a few pieces. Give me a good pair of pants, a puffy, a jacket and base layers and what else do I need? Sure rain gear is important, but 'breathable' rain gear exists only with sasquatch and the loch ness monster. Heavy insulation pieces are nice for whitetail hunting (I do that too) but you can get away with the cheapest of the cheap Michelin man style outer wear sitting in a stand all day.

A dedicated western hunting line that focuses on a few pieces and does them really well would be pretty cool, you know like that company from Ketchum used to be. It took me buying thousands of dollars of their gear to realize that I really don't need much more than a few select pieces, as those are what I wear 95% of the time anyway. Am I drier in their raingear than frogtoggs? Hard to tell if moisture is entering from the outside or just keeping what I generate in. Am I warmer with the giant whitetail line than I was in my hand me down snow gear, nah not really and its just as heavy to pack into the stand.

I don't blame anyone for selling to a big corp though, I would do EXACTLY the same thing. Hell, I am doing the same thing, it just comes in the form of a 401(k) and IRA before I give my employer theat 55 (love the company, but I am not working with the intent of working a day longer than I have to).

The last thing I'll say in my rant is I am old enough now to realize that I hate companies that have influencers. Last year I was in the market for a new knife and the hype almost made me buy a MKC before I did some more research and bought a Carbon from you guys. Based out of Idaho, no flat bill influencers that swap brands on a whim, oh and this knife flat out works made me loyal to Argali. When my Cimmaron fails I'll own an Absaroka.

Oh and please no GD zippers on back pockets of pants.

Love it. Don't worry, I won't be putting zippers on the back pockets of anything...such a bad idea.

I don't blame anyone for cashing out either. How could I?! No judgment here. My point is just that with all the clothing companies that have sold thus far, after the fact things change significantly and the focus of the founders is lost.

And I hear you on influencers. We've always tried to let the product speak for itself rather than pay someone to tell you its the best.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I think the problem with clothing is people are so variable, pegging fit for everyone is almost (if not completely) impossible.

I also have this saying about hunting clothing. . . If someone is wearing brand x everything from underwear to rain gear, they’re either bought and paid for or they drank the marketing koolaid.

No one makes the best everything, period.

People all have different preferences. I really dislike merino for warm and dry weather. I run really hot and sweat a ton. Merino doesn’t dry nearly as fast as synthetics, leaving me wet and clammy for days on end. I hunt with guys that love merino because they don’t sweat like me. The perfect kit for me isn’t the perfect kit for them.

My biggest rub with one big name hunting company is the drop in quality but increase in price. I’ve got some stuff from Sitka that’s over a decade old with hundreds of field days that is in exponential better shape than things a fraction of the age, with a fraction of field days, that cost exponentially more than the old stuff. Seems that’s the way when private equity gets involved. . . Decrease quality, increase marketing budget, and increase price. I’m fine with paying more for better. I’m getting kind of tired of paying for cool marketing videos and crappy products.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with you that fit is extremely difficult given the wide array of human bodies. I don't think it is realistic to expect every hunter to fit into any brand perfectly. However, I do think it is possible to strive to get the fit right and consistent in terms of waist, legs, cuffs, gusset, etc.

 

[TheCougar]

Lightweight merino and true durability never go hand in hand unfortunately.

It’s got to be possible. I don’t expect synthetic-like durability, that’s while I put in the qualifier “some”. I know they will be prone to snags and pilling. Still, crotch blowouts and huge holes are avoidable. Maybe a merino-synthetic blend on the seat, thigh panels and/or knees panels. Like an Obsidian with some reinforced areas, vents, and quality construction (looking at you, FL).

 

[Brad@Argali]

This is an interesting topic since there are so many companies already producing products that people are familiar with however as a fan of your products and company I have a few comments. First though is that there are very likely many people like myself that are completely ignorant to all the backstories and companies motivations to sell products. They only see the adds and trends which if many people aren't following up on all this stuff its difficult to keep track. Many people go to work, have families kids that have baseball, soccer, football, etc. so to follow Company X and what they are doing and who they buy their stuff from etc. might not appeal to the average person and they buy the product because they thought it looked good or it was on sale.

It seems that the true intent is to sell to the not average person that will appreciate the products and company which may or may not decrease the audience you want to reach.

Anyways as to my opinions in hunting apparel.

No. 01. Durability - If its supposed to be a waterproof jacket then it needs to be waterproof and not be fragile. If its going to be a hiking pant then brush etc, cant be tearing it apart after going through the thick stuff on the first trip.

No. 02 Fit - It doesn't need to be so tight that its cutting off circulation but the baggy clothes are not good either. I wear a lot of Kuiu products and one of the main reasons is they fit me. Their store is 15 minutes away and I can try the products on or exchange them pretty easy.

No. 03 - Function - The products need to do as they are intended. Waterproof means waterproof, cool means cool, and warm means warm. If they do that then that's half the battle.

A simple line up of some of the basics is probably all that is needed. Good luck and keep us posted.

Great thoughts. Thank you.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

The whole PE sell put thing is happening in nearly every industry. In my industry, medicine, private practice docs are or gave sold out faster than anyone would expect, and the results are universally felt much quicker by the end user, the patient. Many times the doc is obligated to stay on for a year or two, then new docs are brought in cheaper, the old doc leaves, and customer service foes down hill quickly. Staff feel it as well and we get applicants all the time telling us how the PE company sux to work for.

Pretty soon the US will be largely a corporate owned and run country with very few actual mom and pop places left. It isnt easy being a privTe practice doc these days as costs have skyrocketed for goods, staff, and equipment but insurance keeps cutting payment and there is no way to make up the difference except to see more and do more in an already finite amount of time.

I realize each industry is unique but there are common traits among them all. The product is second to customer reception. If the customer isnt happy, it doesnt matter if the product is awesome. If the product is awesome, many times costs are high to create, and the amount of dollars going around isnt really keeping up with other life demands. Its tough. I applaud anyone who makes it work.

 

[bergie]

I don't blame anyone for cashing out either. How could I?! No judgment here. My point is just that with all the clothing companies that have sold thus far, after the fact things change significantly and the focus of the founders is lost.

Certainly wasn't insinuating you were bashing them for selling. I should have continued on that thought. Gotta buy from places when they are small and the focus is what should be the focus and then once they sell, move on to the next. This is why I don't buy FL anymore.

The stuff I am reading about Outdoor Vitals has me interested and from the outside seem to be coming from the right place. Maybe an Argali x Outdoor Vitals collab on clothing may be best. I have no idea the business side of something like that so if it doesn't make sense for any variety of reasons this can be completely ignored.

 

[Strider]

I’m genuinely interested in the priorities you think are important for a western clothing line. How important is being quiet, fit, function, price? How important are feature sets? I’m listening to what you have to say.

My priorities are simplicity, durability, versatility, and functionality. I don't want different set ups for different seasons. I want to layer accordingly and use the same gear year round. Price is what it is. If the gear is built according to my needs I'll spend what is needed.

I find my self pulling away from hunting companies becouse it seems they design and build clothing on an idea not through prolonged use in the field. I would value a company that leans into natural materials, Pocket layouts and cuts that are functional not just a slight tweak of other models. Fjallraven pants are hideous and cotton. Yet when worn and used for weeks straight you find the value in the size and location of pockets for example. Don't make something just to sell another sku.

The gear I desire may be unattainable. Most of the gear I see is seemingly designed and tested in one style or pursuit. Yet In a given fall I and those I know will hunt from mid August through February. I don't have money for multiple sets of gear. I just need gear built for living outside year round.

 

[TaperPin]

My priorities are simplicity, durability, versatility, and functionality. I don't want different set ups for different seasons. I want to layer accordingly and use the same gear year round. Price is what it is. If the gear is built according to my needs I'll spend what is needed.

I find my self pulling away from hunting companies becouse it seems they design and build clothing on an idea not through prolonged use in the field. I would value a company that leans into natural materials, Pocket layouts and cuts that are functional not just a slight tweak of other models. Fjallraven pants are hideous and cotton. Yet when worn and used for weeks straight you find the value in the size and location of pockets for example. Don't make something just to sell another sku.

The gear I desire may be unattainable. Most of the gear I see is seemingly designed and tested in one style or pursuit. Yet In a given fall I and those I know will hunt from mid August through February. I don't have money for multiple sets of gear. I just need gear built for living outside year round.

Well said. Not that it’s good or bad, I’ve often scratched my head as dudes seem to slowly gravitate to slimmer fits for no reason. I’ve worked for the Forest Service as a kid and the style of pants then weren’t all that different from those worn after world war 2, logging pants, construction pants, mining pants, firefighting pants, old man pants, little kid pants, all comfortable somewhat loose fitting, and all function year round with two pairs of long John’s or none. I’ve never worn loose fitting pants in the hotter months and thought they would be better if tighter fitting with less free room.

Is it marketing driven, or the population becoming less rural, or the impact of movies, or maybe guys are more concerned about how pants make their butt look for a good reason I just don’t know about.

The pants on 1990 me are baggy, but this shell was super baggy, and it fit over a tremendous amount of insulating layers and still had great range of motion. All these years later and what I use isn’t any better.

 

[Poser]

The pants on 1990 me are baggy, but this shell was super baggy, and it fit over a tremendous amount of insulating layers and still had great range of motion. All these years later and what I use isn’t any better.
View attachment 909599

I don't know if you recall, but everything in the 90s was baggy. T shirts were even super boxy and oversized.

 

[hibernation]

Well said. Not that it’s good or bad, I’ve often scratched my head as dudes seem to slowly gravitate to slimmer fits for no reason. I’ve worked for the Forest Service as a kid and the style of pants then weren’t all that different from those worn after world war 2, logging pants, construction pants, mining pants, firefighting pants, old man pants, little kid pants, all comfortable somewhat loose fitting, and all function year round with two pairs of long John’s or none. I’ve never worn loose fitting pants in the hotter months and thought they would be better if tighter fitting with less free room.

Is it marketing driven, or the population becoming less rural, or the impact of movies, or maybe guys are more concerned about how pants make their butt look for a good reason I just don’t know about.

The pants on 1990 me are baggy, but this shell was super baggy, and it fit over a tremendous amount of insulating layers and still had great range of motion. All these years later and what I use isn’t any better.

I think it partly comes from the climbing/mountaineering world that these hunting lines emulated in the first place, where slimmer fits do make sense. Baggy legs get caught on crampons, and bigger clothing just weighs more and takes longer to dry. Slimmer fit pants work better for alpine climbing, ice, skiing, etc. Modern fabrics like softshells, lycra, etc, have also played a role in allowing slimmer fits that you just couldn't do in older materials.

I'm sure fashion has played a partial role too, just look at men's suits now compared to the 90s.

 

[Alpine4x4]

Durability is a big one right off the bat. When you read reviews on clothing durability is usually the chief complaint when one is made. When the consumer pays as much as we do for these technical garments they should last for awhile and be designed to handle the abuse they will be put through. The Merino pant idea above is to me a classic example of a good idea that translates to a bad product. Merino is amazing and has a ton of benefits, but one quick walk through the brush and those pants are shredded and now you have bad reviews and a bad product.

Fit is another one and like mentioned before, fit is subjective. Whats not subjective is sizing consistency (looking at you KUIU). If you can keep your sizing the same it helps the consumer immensely. The fit isnt going to work for everyone, but if its the same every time its a lot easier to find you size and just buy product vs having to know certain products you need to size up or down.

Core line. The problem with most of these companies is saturation. They have too many niche products with extremely minor differences from similar products it makes it confusing. Early season, mid season, late season. Build a kit for each and call it a day. I dont need 6 different kind of mid season pants from dry to maybe some rain to pouring rain to snow to sitting to hiking, to full moon vs waning moon etc. This circles back to the fit now as you can offer additional sizing since you dont have 20 kinds of pants in your catalog. You can offer your early season pant in reg, short, and tall and then offer in regular/athletic or relaxed/loose fit.

And for the love of God design for function vs form. Hip vents are required. Front pockets that your knife wont fall out of are required. Front pockets you can actually get into when you have a knife clipped in it are required. Material that will take the abuse with reinforcing in the right places. Thumbholes are awesome. Integrated masks in otherwise awesome hoodies that cant be removed are not awesome. If you make a solid boxer brief like FL's Wick and put the seam right down the ass crack like FL did making it a G-String, you shouldnt be marketing boxer briefs.