The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[Beagle1]

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬-‭22‬

You are correct on the traditional Christian view with the exception that they are not living in ignorance but denial.

The evidence is overwhelming that the Bible is true all the historical, archaeological, and scientific findings line up with the Bible maybe not how most would initially expect in some cases. I’ll admit I am not an expert, but many experts have no problem at all looking at our world and it lining up with the Bible. When people are in denial and don’t want to find evidence that lines up with the Bible they can twist to fit their narrative.
Just like others have said this is easier to discuss on the phone or similar, feel free to reach out we would love for you to know Christ.

Ok. Denial of natural revelation that they are not aware of is ignorance to me but whether it's denial or ignorance the seeker gets same punishment no matter what his circumstances.

"The evidence is overwhelming that the Bible is true all the historical, archaeological, and scientific findings line up with the Bible maybe not how most would initially expect in some cases."

If you’re talking about some historical and geographical references in the Bible , yeah many align with known facts. But that’s also true of many ancient texts. The Iliad mentions real cities and battles, that doesn’t make it divinely inspired or prove that gods intervened in the Trojan War.

The question isn’t whether the Bible contains some accurate history it’s whether the extraordinary claims it makes (miracles, resurrections, divine revelation, etc.) are supported by extraordinary evidence. And on that point, the Bible relies mostly on anonymous authorship, conflicting accounts, and unverifiable supernatural claims.

If the Bible were “overwhelmingly” verified by archaeology and science, you and I wouldn’t still be having this debate 2,000 years later.

I appreciate your offer to reach out but I have done enough of that reaching out with my Christian friends and I mean that in a sincere way.

 

[Beagle1]

@Beagle1 it really seems to me upu feel the decision to believe and follow God is seriously important, and upu even make claims most atheists dont by saying its a matter of heaven or hell….

So why not just go down the rabbit hole and see what happens? If it is so important, why are you so interested in making it all about upu and your reliance on verifiable repeatable evidence? Why not just accept that God exists and let Him do the convincing for you?

Not trying to tell you what to do here, but dang, you make a convincing argument to give it an honest trial and see what happens.

You assume if everyone goes down the rabbit hole they would naturally reach your conclusion but we all know what happens when they don't, in Christian theology the onus is on them.

If I am wrong it is a matter of heaven or hell which I think gives you some idea of the thought I have put into my lack of belief. Thisi is not meant to sound flip but it will. There are many other religions I don't follow that have similar punishments awaiting me. Like you I don't spend my time worrying about them either. I have put the effort in and am comfortable with where it led me.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Faith is a personal journey, if you are actually seeking then put the same faith you have in atheism and apply it to God.

As i have said and pretty much anyone will admit, it takes a great deal more faith to beloeve we came from “nothing” than to believe we came from some supreme being.


You mentioned your education, what is upur area of expertise.? Just trying to talk is all with this, nothing ill intended.

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

God Bless All of You

 

[Beagle1]

Faith is a personal journey, if you are actually seeking then put the same faith you have in atheism and apply it to God.

As i have said and pretty much anyone will admit, it takes a great deal more faith to beloeve we came from “nothing” than to believe we came from some supreme being.


You mentioned your education, what is upur area of expertise.? Just trying to talk is all with this, nothing ill intended.

I don't take offense at the questions so I hope you'll understand where I'm coming from with some of my answers.

For me atheism isn't a belief system that requires faith. As I've said before it is just a lack of belief due to insufficient proof. My energy doesn't go into not believing it goes into that which I have found I can believe based on evidence and reason. I don't know the answer to the origin of everything but the flip side of that is I also don't embrace an answer which isn't supported by good evidence on important issues like the existence of God. For me pretending to know that would feel dishonest.

My background is a Jesuit college education and a three year graduate degree after that. So you can blame my skepticism on the Jesuits. Sorry but I will not discuss my professional life online. Just too many crazies out there that could cause me and my family problems.

Outside of that I am a serious deer hunter and steelhead fisherman. I run my two beagles on rabbits in the snow just to watch them have fun. I've killed enough of them in my life so they get a pass now that I am old and soft.

 

[rabbithuntr]

Ok. Denial of natural revelation that they are not aware of is ignorance to me but whether it's denial or ignorance the seeker gets same punishment no matter what his circumstances.

"The evidence is overwhelming that the Bible is true all the historical, archaeological, and scientific findings line up with the Bible maybe not how most would initially expect in some cases."

If you’re talking about some historical and geographical references in the Bible , yeah many align with known facts. But that’s also true of many ancient texts. The Iliad mentions real cities and battles, that doesn’t make it divinely inspired or prove that gods intervened in the Trojan War.

The question isn’t whether the Bible contains some accurate history it’s whether the extraordinary claims it makes (miracles, resurrections, divine revelation, etc.) are supported by extraordinary evidence. And on that point, the Bible relies mostly on anonymous authorship, conflicting accounts, and unverifiable supernatural claims.

If the Bible were “overwhelmingly” verified by archaeology and science, you and I wouldn’t still be having this debate 2,000 years later.

I appreciate your offer to reach out but I have done enough of that reaching out with my Christian friends and I mean that in a sincere way.

An able adult has no excuse for ignorance.

There is evidence that supports miracles claimed in the Bible with more as time goes on.

The Bible says wide is the road to destruction. Mankind in general is prideful choose to deny the truth rather than humble himself. The debate will continue till all of mankind humbles themselves before God (after He comes again as the conquering King)

 

[Dsiv]

God is good my brothers and sisters! May God keep everyone healthy and safe!

 

[Beagle1]

An able adult has no excuse for ignorance.

There is evidence that supports miracles claimed in the Bible with more as time goes on.

The Bible says wide is the road to destruction. Mankind in general is prideful choose to deny the truth rather than humble himself. The debate will continue till all of mankind humbles themselves before God (after He comes again as the conquering King)

I have answered the ignorance issue you raised in my prior posts.

You mention evidence of miracles supporting the Bible but these are often anecdotal, highly subjective or hotly disputed. You state the evidence of miracles is strong and growing. If that was true your belief would not require faith it would be universally accepted which is certainly not the case 2000 years later.

You cited the nonbelievers' pride as the main reason for their disbelief, failing to understand pride afflicts the believers as well as the nonbelievers. Assuming nonbelievers are too proud to see what you believe is itself a form of that pride.

 

[dylanvb]

@Beagle1
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"
Stuart Chase

“But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭8‬:‭32‬ ‭NKJV

Pharaoh got to witness first hand the miracles and destruction that God could bring upon man yet still hardened his heart. All these miraculous signs still weren’t enough for him.

All we are trying to explain that the decision to believe rests upon your shoulders.

I’ll ask you the same question, are you willing to stand in front of God and answer for your life? It is a simple yes or no.

 

[dylanvb]

Again this thread was started to profess the greatness of God and post scripture. Maybe we should start another thread where we discuss these other matters even though I don’t see that thread surviving.

 

[dylanvb]

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

We are all condemned to death through our sinful lives. We all have time to confess to Christ and turn from our past. The decision is yours.

 

[Jason Snyder]

“For I have given rest to the weary and joy to the sorrowing.””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31‬:‭25‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[CRJR45]

I truly have enjoyed this thread , it makes me see the troubles in the world are all man made . The history of the world is the history of religions . If you think one man made religion is better than the 3,999 other religions , you don't see the truth , you see what you want to see .
You believe in a god because it makes you feel superior to those that don't , and this thread is proof of that , all you quoting scriptures , like it holds a profound meaning .
Everything in the bible was written by a man , or a woman , yet you all seem so certain it holds godly meaning .
It's the same as if Jerry Farwell , or Tammy Baker or Joel Osteen were to write a book . They would all claim they were inspired by god , but it would only be their self serving story they could promote , for profit , just like the original bible . Just a tool to control the people and get some money flowing .
Sorry if my thoughts are contrary to what you hold dear and I mean no disrespect when I say this whole thread reminded me of children getting all excited about Santa Claus .


And I'll leave you with this , as it seems so fitting -

A religion is like a penis , it's ok to have one and be proud of it .
But's it's not ok to take it out in public and wave it around .


Time and place .

 

[Beagle1]

@Beagle1
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible"
Stuart Chase

“But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭8‬:‭32‬ ‭NKJV

Pharaoh got to witness first hand the miracles and destruction that God could bring upon man yet still hardened his heart. All these miraculous signs still weren’t enough for him.

All we are trying to explain that the decision to believe rests upon your shoulders.

I’ll ask you the same question, are you willing to stand in front of God and answer for your life? It is a simple yes or no.

You have provided a quote that strengthens one of the points I have been making. Belief depends more on the feelings of the person than on the level of the evidence so it’s not really about truth. Is that something to base your future eternity on?

As to no proof is possible? Of course proof is possible.

If I am wrong about the existence of God sure I’ll answer for my life with him. I’ll tell him what I believed and why I found Christian theology insufficient. But I don’t know why God would bother with that since he was already aware of my thoughts and knows any of my future thoughts better than I do.

So if the sincerity of my search is found lacking because I arrived at the wrong answer I’ll be in the company of the hundreds of millions of Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and nonbelievers before me who were on a similar journey and reached the wrong conclusion.

 

[Beagle1]

I truly have enjoyed this thread , it makes me see the troubles in the world are all man made . The history of the world is the history of religions . If you think one man made religion is better than the 3,999 other religions , you don't see the truth , you see what you want to see .
You believe in a god because it makes you feel superior to those that don't , and this thread is proof of that , all you quoting scriptures , like it holds a profound meaning .
Everything in the bible was written by a man , or a woman , yet you all seem so certain it holds godly meaning .
It's the same as if Jerry Farwell , or Tammy Baker or Joel Osteen were to write a book . They would all claim they were inspired by god , but it would only be their self serving story they could promote , for profit , just like the original bible . Just a tool to control the people and get some money flowing .
Sorry if my thoughts are contrary to what you hold dear and I mean no disrespect when I say this whole thread reminded me of children getting all excited about Santa Claus .


And I'll leave you with this , as it seems so fitting -

A religion is like a penis , it's ok to have one and be proud of it .
But's it's not ok to take it out in public and wave it around .


Time and place .

Be ready for some interesting responses.

 

[Shortschaf]

wisdom is knowing when to use the ignore feature

 

[Jason Snyder]

it makes you feel superior to those that don't ,

Not in any way whatsoever. Sorry you feel that way.

 

[Jason Snyder]

A religion is like a penis , it's ok to have one and be proud of it .
But's it's not ok to take it out in public and wave it around .

Yet no one forced you to open this thread and read it, correct?

 

[Gman12]

As a history buff, I take a historical perspective regarding my faith and belief in the Bible. There were simply too many instances of prophecies in the Old Testament speaking of the coming of Jesus to ignore. And there were way too many eyewitness accounts written by too many different people all telling the same story to dispel.

 

[dylanvb]

You have provided a quote that strengthens one of the points I have been making. Belief depends more on the feelings of the person than on the level of the evidence so it’s not really about truth. Is that something to base your future eternity on?

As to no proof is possible? Of course proof is possible.

If I am wrong about the existence of God sure I’ll answer for my life with him. I’ll tell him what I believed and why I found Christian theology insufficient. But I don’t know why God would bother with that since he was already aware of my thoughts and knows any of my future thoughts better than I do.

So if the sincerity of my search is found lacking because I arrived at the wrong answer I’ll be in the company of the hundreds of millions of Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and nonbelievers before me who were on a similar journey and reached the wrong conclusion.

Yes I agree, belief in the Bible takes faith.

“So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬-‭7 NKJV

“But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The proof that God exists is all around us and I truly believe that. Like I have said previously if you are looking for giant miracles or some shiny rock that says Gods real you are probably going to be disappointed. God is often working in the small things in our lives and he also gave us free will to believe in him. That free will he gave us means that he has to create everything in a way that makes sense.

Myself and probably almost every believer in this thread can post evidence that points to the historicity of the Bible and to the testimony of Jesus Christ just like you and anyone else can post something to dispute it. You have to make the decision to believe in it.

I do not waist my time on other religions because no other person makes the claims Jesus Christ has and been able to back them up.

Muhammad is in the grave, Buddha is in the grave, Joseph smith is in the grave.
Jesus Christ has risen from it. Jesus came to overcome death to provide us hope in the next life not this one.

Take religion out of it because the true message of the Bible is not how to follow some religions guide lines but how to have a personal relationship with God our Father and how to grow and become closer to him. Jesus himself condemned the Jewish leaders of the time because they were using the message to lord over their fellow man.

Christ constantly condemns both believer and non believer. He points out the hypocrisy of the believers and also the misunderstanding that they have. He did not come to save us from this life but to save us from the death we are all condemned to for our sins.