The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[dylanvb]

I truly have enjoyed this thread , it makes me see the troubles in the world are all man made . The history of the world is the history of religions . If you think one man made religion is better than the 3,999 other religions , you don't see the truth , you see what you want to see .
You believe in a god because it makes you feel superior to those that don't , and this thread is proof of that , all you quoting scriptures , like it holds a profound meaning .
Everything in the bible was written by a man , or a woman , yet you all seem so certain it holds godly meaning .
It's the same as if Jerry Farwell , or Tammy Baker or Joel Osteen were to write a book . They would all claim they were inspired by god , but it would only be their self serving story they could promote , for profit , just like the original bible . Just a tool to control the people and get some money flowing .
Sorry if my thoughts are contrary to what you hold dear and I mean no disrespect when I say this whole thread reminded me of children getting all excited about Santa Claus .


And I'll leave you with this , as it seems so fitting -

A religion is like a penis , it's ok to have one and be proud of it .
But's it's not ok to take it out in public and wave it around .


Time and place .

I don’t see any of us claiming superiority rather than trying to warn others that the wages of sin is death.

What do we get from you becoming a follower of Christ? Nothing other than knowing one more person has been saved from the clench of death and sin.

Yes other people will use Christianity to lord over others but they will have to answer to God directly for their actions.

Don’t let sinful men be the reason you don’t have a real relationship with God.

The message of the Bible is not how we become rich and wealthy in this life and rather it is exactly the opposite, the message is if you choose this path it will be the hardest decision you will ever make.

And if you don’t want to talk about religion then don’t post in a religious thread

 

[dylanvb]

Let me make something very clear to a lot of people who want to get Christianity confused with every other religion.

True Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ/God. That is it. It is not a book of rules and regulations or hoops you have to jump through to get to heaven. Yes it has rules and regulations in it but these are to point out the fact that WE FALL SHORT and NEED the blood of Christ to save us from our sin. You cannot get to God without Jesus Christ.

If you are truly convicted by the word of God then yes your life should reflect that change. But at the end of the day that decision falls on you.

Now if you don’t believe in God then I don’t know why you are posting in this thread in the first place. Again maybe we should start another thread where we can talk about that.

 

[Jason Snyder]

“And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other’s feet. I have given you an example to follow. Do as I have done to you. I tell you the truth, slaves are not greater than their master. Nor is the messenger more important than the one who sends the message.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13‬:‭14‬-‭16‬ ‭NLT

 

[Yoder]

I truly have enjoyed this thread , it makes me see the troubles in the world are all man made . The history of the world is the history of religions . If you think one man made religion is better than the 3,999 other religions , you don't see the truth , you see what you want to see .
You believe in a god because it makes you feel superior to those that don't , and this thread is proof of that , all you quoting scriptures , like it holds a profound meaning .
Everything in the bible was written by a man , or a woman , yet you all seem so certain it holds godly meaning .
It's the same as if Jerry Farwell , or Tammy Baker or Joel Osteen were to write a book . They would all claim they were inspired by god , but it would only be their self serving story they could promote , for profit , just like the original bible . Just a tool to control the people and get some money flowing .
Sorry if my thoughts are contrary to what you hold dear and I mean no disrespect when I say this whole thread reminded me of children getting all excited about Santa Claus .


And I'll leave you with this , as it seems so fitting -

A religion is like a penis , it's ok to have one and be proud of it .
But's it's not ok to take it out in public and wave it around .


Time and place .

I think you mean it with complete disrespect, but that's ok. I used to think exactly like you for most of my life and I've said a lot worse things.

 

[Beagle1]

Yes I agree, belief in the Bible takes faith.

“So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight.”
‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬-‭7 NKJV

“But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The proof that God exists is all around us and I truly believe that. Like I have said previously if you are looking for giant miracles or some shiny rock that says Gods real you are probably going to be disappointed. God is often working in the small things in our lives and he also gave us free will to believe in him. That free will he gave us means that he has to create everything in a way that makes sense.

Myself and probably almost every believer in this thread can post evidence that points to the historicity of the Bible and to the testimony of Jesus Christ just like you and anyone else can post something to dispute it. You have to make the decision to believe in it.

I do not waist my time on other religions because no other person makes the claims Jesus Christ has and been able to back them up.

Muhammad is in the grave, Buddha is in the grave, Joseph smith is in the grave.
Jesus Christ has risen from it. Jesus came to overcome death to provide us hope in the next life not this one.

Take religion out of it because the true message of the Bible is not how to follow some religions guide lines but how to have a personal relationship with God our Father and how to grow and become closer to him. Jesus himself condemned the Jewish leaders of the time because they were using the message to lord over their fellow man.

Christ constantly condemns both believer and non believer. He points out the hypocrisy of the believers and also the misunderstanding that they have. He did not come to save us from this life but to save us from the death we are all condemned to for our sins.

It’s fairly simple, you make the decision to believe on faith. For the reasons stated in my prior posts I don’t.

On proof God could easily end this 2000 year back and forth among religions by performing miracles that unquestionably show he is the one and true God. The ironic thing is this would persuade more non believers than believers of other religions and even some Christian believers.

The religious figures you stated are dead but their religions and sacred texts live on with Islam expected to catch or exceed Christianity in followers by mid century.

 

[bpa556]

I grew up with God since I can remember. I’ve never grown to fear him. Some of y’all must know a different God than I.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dylanvb]

It’s fairly simple, you make the decision to believe on faith. For the reasons stated in my prior posts I don’t.

On proof God could easily end this 2000 year back and forth among religions by performing miracles that unquestionably show he is the one and true God. The ironic thing is this would persuade more non believers than believers of other religions and even some Christian believers.

The religious figures you stated are dead but their religions and sacred texts live on with Islam expected to catch or exceed Christianity in followers by mid century.

I mean He did, and he gave us the Bible as record to said miraculous events.

Let’s dive into this shall we. We have the Dead Sea scrolls. These scrolls contain the complete book of Isaiah from beginning to end.

How old are these? I’ll post the google search results.
This scroll is exceptionally well-preserved and dates back to around 125 BCE, making it roughly 1,000 years older than previous known Hebrew manuscripts of Isaiah. It was discovered in Cave 1 at Qumran in 1947 and is one of the most significant finds among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

According to google the Dead Sea scrolls pre date Christ by 200-300 years. Wow amazing.

Why is this important? Well I am glad you asked.
Textual Accuracy:
The text of the Great Isaiah Scroll closely matches the Masoretic Text, the standard Hebrew Bible used today, demonstrating the remarkable consistency of the text over centuries
Now what does the book of Isaiah say? Lots of things but the most important are the number of messianic prophecies in said book.

While there's no single, universally agreed-upon number, scholars and religious texts suggest that Jesus fulfilled a significant number of prophecies found in the book of Isaiah, with estimates ranging from over 100 to over 300. Some specific examples include Isaiah 7:14 (virgin birth), Isaiah 9:1-2 (ministry in Galilee), Isaiah 53 (suffering servant), and Isaiah 61:1-2 (preaching good news).
Let’s do some math shall we? What is the probability of Christ fulfilling said prophecies in the book of Isaiah?
The probability of one person fulfilling even a few of these prophecies by chance is considered incredibly low, with some calculations resulting in odds of 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 10^28

This is just some of the proof that we Christian’s have to back our beliefs.

 

[dylanvb]

I grew up with God since I can remember. I’ve never grown to fear him. Some of y’all must know a different God than I.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The fear of the Lord, in a biblical context, refers to a deep respect, reverence, and awe for God's power and authority, rather than a feeling of terror. It's a recognition of God's holiness and an understanding of one's dependence on Him.

 

[bpa556]

The fear of the Lord, in a biblical context, refers to a deep respect, reverence, and awe for God's power and authority, rather than a feeling of terror. It's a recognition of God's holiness and an understanding of one's dependence on Him.

I know.

Fear and respect are opposite ends of the spectrum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Drenalin]

I mean He did, and he gave us the Bible as record to said miraculous events.

Let’s dive into this shall we. We have the Dead Sea scrolls. These scrolls contain the complete book of Isaiah from beginning to end.

How old are these? I’ll post the google search results.
This scroll is exceptionally well-preserved and dates back to around 125 BCE, making it roughly 1,000 years older than previous known Hebrew manuscripts of Isaiah. It was discovered in Cave 1 at Qumran in 1947 and is one of the most significant finds among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

According to google the Dead Sea scrolls pre date Christ by 200-300 years. Wow amazing.

Why is this important? Well I am glad you asked.
Textual Accuracy:
The text of the Great Isaiah Scroll closely matches the Masoretic Text, the standard Hebrew Bible used today, demonstrating the remarkable consistency of the text over centuries
Now what does the book of Isaiah say? Lots of things but the most important are the number of messianic prophecies in said book.

While there's no single, universally agreed-upon number, scholars and religious texts suggest that Jesus fulfilled a significant number of prophecies found in the book of Isaiah, with estimates ranging from over 100 to over 300. Some specific examples include Isaiah 7:14 (virgin birth), Isaiah 9:1-2 (ministry in Galilee), Isaiah 53 (suffering servant), and Isaiah 61:1-2 (preaching good news).
Let’s do some math shall we? What is the probability of Christ fulfilling said prophecies in the book of Isaiah?
The probability of one person fulfilling even a few of these prophecies by chance is considered incredibly low, with some calculations resulting in odds of 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 10^28

This is just some of the proof that we Christian’s have to back our beliefs.

For someone who doesn't think this thread is for arguing for or against faith, you sure do a lot of it.

What the bible says is not a compelling argument for a non-believer. If they thought the bible was true, they'd likely be a believer. You simply cannot "prove" God (or prove Jesus was/is God) in the traditional sense - as I believe you have acknowledged, faith is required. What you or I accept as proofs just don't measure up, and in fact presuppose God or a god.

I very strongly doubt that continually advocating for your own position in this thread is moving the needle for folks who don't already believe, or have some level of "want" to believe. It's not your job to argue them into submission. That's meant to be helpful, not insulting.

 

[dylanvb]

For someone who doesn't think this thread is for arguing for or against faith, you sure do a lot of it.

What the bible says is not a compelling argument for a non-believer. If they thought the bible was true, they'd likely be a believer. You simply cannot "prove" God (or prove Jesus was/is God) in the traditional sense - as I believe you have acknowledged, faith is required. What you or I accept as proofs just don't measure up, and in fact presuppose God or a god.

I very strongly doubt that continually advocating for your own position in this thread is moving the needle for folks who don't already believe, or have some level of "want" to believe. It's not your job to argue them into submission. That's meant to be helpful, not insulting.

I think it is important for us Christian’s to not only know the word of God but to also be able to defend it. Maybe I am not doing a good job but at least I am trying. I am just trying to point people in the direction I myself have found answers.

I cannot save anyone I know this, it is the Holy Spirit who moves in people’s hearts and it is Gods doing in Gods time.

 

[go_deep]

I don't think I'm better than anyone else because I am a believer, quite different, because I am a believer I understand how much I need to improve.

 

[go_deep]

 

[Jimmy]

God promised that those who truly seek Him will find Him.

 

[Beagle1]

I mean He did, and he gave us the Bible as record to said miraculous events.

Let’s dive into this shall we. We have the Dead Sea scrolls. These scrolls contain the complete book of Isaiah from beginning to end.

How old are these? I’ll post the google search results.
This scroll is exceptionally well-preserved and dates back to around 125 BCE, making it roughly 1,000 years older than previous known Hebrew manuscripts of Isaiah. It was discovered in Cave 1 at Qumran in 1947 and is one of the most significant finds among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

According to google the Dead Sea scrolls pre date Christ by 200-300 years. Wow amazing.

Why is this important? Well I am glad you asked.
Textual Accuracy:
The text of the Great Isaiah Scroll closely matches the Masoretic Text, the standard Hebrew Bible used today, demonstrating the remarkable consistency of the text over centuries
Now what does the book of Isaiah say? Lots of things but the most important are the number of messianic prophecies in said book.

While there's no single, universally agreed-upon number, scholars and religious texts suggest that Jesus fulfilled a significant number of prophecies found in the book of Isaiah, with estimates ranging from over 100 to over 300. Some specific examples include Isaiah 7:14 (virgin birth), Isaiah 9:1-2 (ministry in Galilee), Isaiah 53 (suffering servant), and Isaiah 61:1-2 (preaching good news).
Let’s do some math shall we? What is the probability of Christ fulfilling said prophecies in the book of Isaiah?
The probability of one person fulfilling even a few of these prophecies by chance is considered incredibly low, with some calculations resulting in odds of 1 in 10^17 or 1 in 10^28

This is just some of the proof that we Christian’s have to back our beliefs.

Preserved texts don’t necessarily equal divine truth. Consistency of the texts over centuries means the copiers did an excellent job. We have well-preserved Greek myths and Hindu scriptures too, but would you say that proves Zeus or Vishnu is real.

I am not a Biblical scholar. I can do the Google thing and provide you with a list who are whose opinions differ from yours on messianic prophesies but I don’t care to clutter up this thread and go more off the rails. If you want it I’ll PM you with it. But here are a few highlights.

Dr. Bart Ehrman (Professor of Religious Studies, UNC Chapel Hill)​

“Most of the so-called prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament are taken out of context, mistranslated, or reinterpreted in a way that no one in the original context would have recognized.”
— Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (1999)

---

Dr. Michael Coogan (Editor of The New Oxford Annotated Bible)​

“Isaiah 7:14 was not originally about a virgin birth or a messiah centuries later. It was a prophecy given to King Ahaz about events in his immediate future. The gospel writers retroactively applied this to Jesus using the Greek Septuagint translation.”
— The Old Testament: A Historical and Literary Introduction to the Hebrew Scriptures (2011)

And once again as to miracles God could perform one easily that could not be reasonably disputed and we wouldn’t be arguing about old messianic prophesies in 2025. I would welcome it and buy you a beer when I came on board with you.

 

[go_deep]

Preserved texts don’t necessarily equal divine truth. Consistency of the texts over centuries means the copiers did an excellent job. We have well-preserved Greek myths and Hindu scriptures too, but would you say that proves Zeus or Vishnu is real.

I am not a Biblical scholar. I can do the Google thing and provide you with a list who are whose opinions differ from yours on messianic prophesies but I don’t care to clutter up this thread and go more off the rails. If you want it I’ll PM you with it. But here are a few highlights.

Dr. Bart Ehrman (Professor of Religious Studies, UNC Chapel Hill)​

---

Dr. Michael Coogan (Editor of The New Oxford Annotated Bible)​

And once again as to miracles God could perform one easily that could not be reasonably disputed and we wouldn’t be arguing about old messianic prophesies in 2025. I would welcome it and buy you a beer when I came on board with you.

The dead sea scrolls are on public display, and do infact translate accurately to what is written in the Bible that I read and follow.

 

[Speaks]

Interesting thread. Few quick thoughts from a non-Christian.

I cant imagine why an atheist or agnostic would want to try and convince a Christian that they are wrong. Their faith clearly is meaningful to them, it provides a moral framework that is generally consistent with behavior that is positive for society, they likely get a great sense of community from their church, it provides a great framework to teach children values that out of that context are hard to teach until they are older and better understand abstract concepts.

Them loosing their faith will have real cost and negative impact on their life and I cant think of any benefit. Perhaps in some edge case, but unless their faith is causing a very real and specific problem loosing it can only do harm and no good.

A Christian or member of any other religion trying to convert a non-believer or follower of another faith to theirs makes way more sense, might not be useful, but makes way more sense.

Personally I grew up going to church and still live my life by Christian values though have not been to Church in ages. I do think that the universe cannot be explained through science, I do think there is a god, I just cant settle on the Christian story. If I view it through the lens that is a fallible human attempt to explain something we all seem to know but cannot adequately express through language (as are most other religions) that makes sense to me and its as good a road to god as any. I pray regularly and tend to find god on mountains, lakes, or an October walk through the woods more than in a sanctuary.

My brother recently started a job as a preacher and I will pop in there a few times at least if nothing else to be supportive. If I had kids they would go to church as my view is too complex to teach them and Christianity is a great framework to start with until they get older. Maybe it would be the right framework for them forever, it certainly would not hurt them for that to be the case.

 

[Yoder]

Some people that are "Christians" think they are better than others, talk down to people, quote scripture for attention like knowing the stats of your favorite baseball team. That is not my personal experience. If I ever come off that way, it's not my intention at all.

When I truly believed, it was a pretty crushing moment for me. I realized I am NOT a good person. That is a hell of a thing. I know I'm not evil and compared to others I'm probably average at best where morality is concerned, but I just thought of every awful thing I've ever done. Knowing I deserve to go to hell and Jesus died for me. Me and every other sinner on Earth. It was extremely humbling. This is why John 3:16 is so important to so many people. I also realized that all of the pride I had for my accomplishments meant nothing since it all came from God and not myself. A real Christian doesn't preach to people to belittle them; they do it because we don't want anyone to go to hell. They tell people the gospel hoping it will spark something inside them to check it out for themself. It's not arrogance that our God is better, we have to believe in the one true God or we aren't Christian.

 

[Beagle1]

Interesting thread. Few quick thoughts from a non-Christian.

I cant imagine why an atheist or agnostic would want to try and convince a Christian that they are wrong. Their faith clearly is meaningful to them, it provides a moral framework that is generally consistent with behavior that is positive for society, they likely get a great sense of community from their church, it provides a great framework to teach children values that out of that context are hard to teach until they are older and better understand abstract concepts.

Them loosing their faith will have real cost and negative impact on their life and I cant think of any benefit. Perhaps in some edge case, but unless their faith is causing a very real and specific problem loosing it can only do harm and no good.

A Christian or member of any other religion trying to convert a non-believer or follower of another faith to theirs makes way more sense, might not be useful, but makes way more sense.

Personally I grew up going to church and still live my life by Christian values though have not been to Church in ages. I do think that the universe cannot be explained through science, I do think there is a god, I just cant settle on the Christian story. If I view it through the lens that is a fallible human attempt to explain something we all seem to know but cannot adequately express through language (as are most other religions) that makes sense to me and its as good a road to god as any. I pray regularly and tend to find god on mountains, lakes, or an October walk through the woods more than in a sanctuary.

My brother recently started a job as a preacher and I will pop in there a few times at least if nothing else to be supportive. If I had kids they would go to church as my view is too complex to teach them and Christianity is a great framework to start with until they get older. Maybe it would be the right framework for them forever, it certainly would not hurt them for that to be the case.

Agree. I do not question one’s faith but I will question the support for one’s beliefs when it makes claims that are not verifiable.

 

[Speaks]

Agree. I do not question one’s faith but I will question the support for one’s beliefs when it makes claims that are not verifiable.

Yea when I hear or read claims trying to prove Christianity through historical record or any kind of science its almost always and huge stretch and my general reaction (though often just in my head) is "come on man, you can believe it without trying to prove it" and frankly I have never heard an attempt to prove it that was a more compelling argument anyway. And it kind of seems to defeat the point anyway.