The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

[go_deep]

“Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
‘Harden not your hearts.’”
Hebrews 4:7

 

[Jpsmith1]

I see this as a testimony to the greatness of God. God has provided 25 years for you and your wife, you guys have beaten the odds.

The surgeries, the ups and downs, to me it’s all because of God you are still here and together and I pray for you and your family that this continues.

God has done many miracles in your life you just don’t see it.

You’re looking for the big thing, the undeniable. Reflect on your own life. Look for God in the small things.

But again I will remind you, just because life is good doesn’t mean you are good. God will hold of on judgement. He is holding off judgement of all of us.

I missed this comment and I kind of take offense at it.

So, my wife and I had less to do with our successful marriage, 2 successful children and overcoming all of the obstacles?

Circling back to hunting. Did God give some dude that big elk he shot? Or did that guy scout hard, hunt hard, work hard, persevere through some rough times on the mountain and get a little lucky?

 

[dylanvb]

I missed this comment and I kind of take offense at it.

So, my wife and I had less to do with our successful marriage, 2 successful children and overcoming all of the obstacles?

Circling back to hunting. Did God give some dude that big elk he shot? Or did that guy scout hard, hunt hard, work hard, persevere through some rough times on the mountain and get a little lucky?

I do not mean to offend you by this comment but I see it more as God is involved in all of our lives more than we see.

Yes it takes effort on our part but I truly see that God has directed every single step and breath in my life to lead me to this exact moment. Directly and indirectly.

Just as God gave those surgeons the want and skills to help and save people. He is so woven into our lives that we look past it as our own doing.

 

[dylanvb]

I missed this comment and I kind of take offense at it.

So, my wife and I had less to do with our successful marriage, 2 successful children and overcoming all of the obstacles?

Circling back to hunting. Did God give some dude that big elk he shot? Or did that guy scout hard, hunt hard, work hard, persevere through some rough times on the mountain and get a little lucky?

I’m that dude that shot a big elk.

I praise God for the desire he has given me to want to provide for my family. I praise God for the animals he has given for us to enjoy. I praise God for the muscles he has given me to pull my bow back. I praise God for the dedication he has given me to practice daily to pull of that perfect shot. I praise God for the job I have that has provided all this gear for me. I praise God for the time I am able to take away from my family and job. I praise God for the meat he is providing and the sustenance for my body. I praise God in everything because he has provided EVERYTHING for me. It is not my own doing but His.
To God be the glory!

 

[dylanvb]

I missed this comment and I kind of take offense at it.

So, my wife and I had less to do with our successful marriage, 2 successful children and overcoming all of the obstacles?

Circling back to hunting. Did God give some dude that big elk he shot? Or did that guy scout hard, hunt hard, work hard, persevere through some rough times on the mountain and get a little lucky?

See the word you use at the very end, luck.

What is that?

I see it as God.

I can work hard and bust my butt and force my own way but without “luck” God, there is no success story.

What you use to praise yourself I use to praise God.

I do not wish to stand on a top of a hill and say look what I have done. I wish to stand at the top of the hill and say look what God has done through me.

 

[Jpsmith1]

See the word you use at the very end, luck.

What is that?

I see it as God.

I can work hard and bust my butt and force my own way but without “luck” God, there is no success story.

What you use to praise yourself I use to praise God.

I do not wish to stand on a top of a hill and say look what I have done. I wish to stand at the top of the hill and say look what God has done through me.

See, and I see luck as just that.

Luck.

 

[Jpsmith1]

I’m that dude that shot a big elk.

I praise God for the desire he has given me to want to provide for my family. I praise God for the animals he has given for us to enjoy. I praise God for the muscles he has given me to pull my bow back. I praise God for the dedication he has given me to practice daily to pull of that perfect shot. I praise God for the job I have that has provided all this gear for me. I praise God for the time I am able to take away from my family and job. I praise God for the meat he is providing and the sustenance for my body. I praise God in everything because he has provided EVERYTHING for me. It is not my own doing but His.
To God be the glory!

Congrats. Seriously.

Some day, I'll find my way west of the big river.

 

[dylanvb]

See, and I see luck as just that.

Luck.

But again, what is it.

It’s a very small miracle. An unexplainable circumstance.

Miracle definition
a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.

Luck definition
success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.

A whole lotta words saying the same exact thing.

I have only been on this earth for 30 years and too many things have happened to me to be able to say this is just good luck. Nah Gods watching out for me.

 

[dylanvb]

Congrats. Seriously.

Some day, I'll find my way west of the big river.

I didn’t shoot a big elk yet….
I did get my first Bear this year with my bow but again, praise be to God for my success.
I was just trying to express my own personal outlook on what others perceive as their own doing.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

Some interesting dialogue while i was sleepong. @Jpsmith1 you talk about your moral code coming from marcus aurelius, and it speaks of doing good and that the gods may take favor on you, marcus was the last in a line of stoic emperors of rome and many therapists actually say that stoicism as a philosophy is closely related to cognitive behavioral therapy by psychologists. It would make sense given your history to lean on something such as stoicism or a person richly steeped in stoicism.

Listen, i was not trying to touch on sore subjects when I brought up your moral code or the early parts of your marriage. All i was trying to point out is you are not being honest with yourself when you demand evidence that is relible and repeatable and verifiable now for big choices but you fell in love woth little to none of those, or when you still feel fear of the belt loop noise…not trying to be crass but i have no similar reaction to belt loops so according to you this emotion you experience is neither real nor something to be believed in …and thats my point. You ask for verifiable repeatable evidence of God before you will believe in Him yet you state openly you still have visceral cognitive experiences with something completely and utterly personal to just you…while at the same time discounting any evidence given in this thread of similar type experiences by other people. According to what you have written in this thread the visceral cognitive experiences you have to belt loops does not rise to the level of evidence for having that visceral reaction to belt loops, but yet you know deep down inside it is a real thing that you experienced and no one can tell you differently. This is a perfect (albeit really bad, and i am sorry you have that reaction) example of something you need to keep a more open mind about going forward in the future. Dont be so quick to discount someone’s profound personal experiences.

Now, i don’t want to get into this too deeply here, but you have touched on a subject that pushes a lot of people away from God and that is a really bad father figure. I am not trying to Psychoanalyze or do anything like that in here, but the presence of a abusive or unloving or absent father in life can be completely detrimental in a number of ways. For starters, it leads many to try and “prove” themself in some manner, for some it creates a need for “self reliance” and for others it leads to deep trust issues that are hard to break. These can all be good in some regard but taken too far can be really bad for the person. It sounds like you have your stuff together which is good and makes me
Happy, but i do have to wonder if deep
Down you are not seeing God (and seeing luck) in places because deep
Down you dont trust there is a such thing as a loving Father. It is a hard wound to let heal and it is counter-intuitive to let it heal because that wound gives us motivation to keep going on for ourselves.

I wish you well brother and will be praying that in the small and big things, you might see luck as more divine intervention and see just how blessed you have been in your adult life. Looking back it can sometimes give a little more clarity.

 

[Jpsmith1]

Some interesting dialogue while i was sleepong. @Jpsmith1 you talk about your moral code coming from marcus aurelius, and it speaks of doing good and that the gods may take favor on you, marcus was the last in a line of stoic emperors of rome and many therapists actually say that stoicism as a philosophy is closely related to cognitive behavioral therapy by psychologists. It would make sense given your history to lean on something such as stoicism or a person richly steeped in stoicism.

Listen, i was not trying to touch on sore subjects when I brought up your moral code or the early parts of your marriage. All i was trying to point out is you are not being honest with yourself when you demand evidence that is relible and repeatable and verifiable now for big choices but you fell in love woth little to none of those, or when you still feel fear of the belt loop noise…not trying to be crass but i have no similar reaction to belt loops so according to you this emotion you experience is neither real nor something to be believed in …and thats my point. You ask for verifiable repeatable evidence of God before you will believe in Him yet you state openly you still have visceral cognitive experiences with something completely and utterly personal to just you…while at the same time discounting any evidence given in this thread of similar type experiences by other people. According to what you have written in this thread the visceral cognitive experiences you have to belt loops does not rise to the level of evidence for having that visceral reaction to belt loops, but yet you know deep down inside it is a real thing that you experienced and no one can tell you differently. This is a perfect (albeit really bad, and i am sorry you have that reaction) example of something you need to keep a more open mind about going forward in the future. Dont be so quick to discount someone’s profound personal experiences.

Now, i don’t want to get into this too deeply here, but you have touched on a subject that pushes a lot of people away from God and that is a really bad father figure. I am not trying to Psychoanalyze or do anything like that in here, but the presence of a abusive or unloving or absent father in life can be completely detrimental in a number of ways. For starters, it leads many to try and “prove” themself in some manner, for some it creates a need for “self reliance” and for others it leads to deep trust issues that are hard to break. These can all be good in some regard but taken too far can be really bad for the person. It sounds like you have your stuff together which is good and makes me
Happy, but i do have to wonder if deep
Down you are not seeing God (and seeing luck) in places because deep
Down you dont trust there is a such thing as a loving Father. It is a hard wound to let heal and it is counter-intuitive to let it heal because that wound gives us motivation to keep going on for ourselves.

I wish you well brother and will be praying that in the small and big things, you might see luck as more divine intervention and see just how blessed you have been in your adult life. Looking back it can sometimes give a little more clarity.

I am very clear that I'm not a moral philosopher. It is a subject I'm spending some of my limited time on while also trying to learn a bunch of other new things. It isn't a high priority for me.

So, yeah, earlier in my life, I was a believer so maybe I used a different standard of evidence then. I've mentioned in some of my comments an iterative process that i have applied to many, if not most or all parts of my life in recent years and how that has improved many things about who I am, how I behave and how I think about things.

It's interesting that I'm not a huge advocate for "self reliance" as much as I recognize the massive interdependence that societies depend on.

You're a physician, right? I service and maintain commercial refrigeration and HVAC systems. We have electricians and plumbers and trash collectors and accountants and all sorts of other people that all rely on everyone else to exist in society.

I internalized a lot of the abuse I suffered as a child, then I worked hard to break that cycle. To NOT be the man my father was or maybe to take the good things that he was and lean into them and to take the bad things and put them away and not expose my own children to that. I became the loving Father I didn't have.

 

[Jpsmith1]

I didn’t shoot a big elk yet….
I did get my first Bear this year with my bow but again, praise be to God for my success.
I was just trying to express my own personal outlook on what others perceive as their own doing.

And I'm trying to shine a light on how that minimizes all the work someone does.

I've still not taken a buck that I have done all the work myself, so to speak. My only buck was taken on a drive where someone stood me in a spot and pushed that deer to me.

Maybe this God fella isn't happy with me, but that discounts the many years I was a believer and still wasn't successful.

 

[dylanvb]

And I'm trying to shine a light on how that minimizes all the work someone does.

I've still not taken a buck that I have done all the work myself, so to speak. My only buck was taken on a drive where someone stood me in a spot and pushed that deer to me.

Maybe this God fella isn't happy with me, but that discounts the many years I was a believer and still wasn't successful.

No, I would say the opposite. I can praise God and then praise my efforts but it’s because of His doing that put me in said position. I could have been born without limbs or some other disability that keeps me from even attempting to take an animal on my own. Glory to God he gave me working hands and feet. Glory to God I was born in a country that allows hunting. Glory to God I moved to a state where I can enjoy the opportunity of hunting elk every year. I see it as everything starts with Him.

“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Jason Snyder]

Believing in God doesn’t discount the hard work you put in. It’s just a different mindset as to whole the credit goes to.

 

[go_deep]

 

[eddielasvegas]

Are you asking and intentionally misspelling because you’re curious? or are you asking because it’s a chance to be rude?

I'm dyslexic so some words present a rael problem getting right.


Eddie

 

[Cowbell]

And I'm trying to shine a light on how that minimizes all the work someone does.

I've still not taken a buck that I have done all the work myself, so to speak. My only buck was taken on a drive where someone stood me in a spot and pushed that deer to me.

Maybe this God fella isn't happy with me, but that discounts the many years I was a believer and still wasn't successful.

Being a believer is different than putting your Faith in God and having a relationship with him. Even the devil and his demons are believers. The Bible teaches us that once someone walks with the Lord and has salvation, they can never lose it. So I would argue you never really had true faith and relationship with The Lord. Being a loving father begins with leading the home as God has called us and he is the ultimate example of a loving father.

As for your early comment on nuances of religion, everyone has a different interpretation of scripture and that changes as we mature in our relationship with the Lord. There are things that I think differently of now than when I first came to know the Lord. Much of these differences is in our cultural perceptions and religious traditions and these are polished as we walk in maturity in our faith. Hence the reason people have different opinions based on maturity levels and/or relationship strength. Many of these small details are not eternal altering though.

 

[Shortschaf]

Many of these small details are not eternal altering though.

+1 to much of your comment and especially this. Too many folks get distracted by the comparatively irrelavent details.

Don't let those disractions keep one from following the actual pillars of the faith.

the small details may come with time (often do, quickly) or they won't. But please don't view that as a prerequisite to entry

 

[Cowbell]

+1 to much of your comment and especially this. Too many folks get distracted by the comparatively irrelavent details.

Don't let those disractions keep one from following the actual pillars of the faith.

the small details may come with time (often do, quickly) or they won't. But please don't view that as a prerequisite to entry

You are dead on - people that don't agree on this overall usually lack the discernment that comes with the Holy spirit or they are just new in their faith. My goal is to serve with people outside my core denomination more to grow me

 

[Beagle1]

Some interesting dialogue while i was sleepong. @Jpsmith1 you talk about your moral code coming from marcus aurelius, and it speaks of doing good and that the gods may take favor on you, marcus was the last in a line of stoic emperors of rome and many therapists actually say that stoicism as a philosophy is closely related to cognitive behavioral therapy by psychologists. It would make sense given your history to lean on something such as stoicism or a person richly steeped in stoicism.

Listen, i was not trying to touch on sore subjects when I brought up your moral code or the early parts of your marriage. All i was trying to point out is you are not being honest with yourself when you demand evidence that is relible and repeatable and verifiable now for big choices but you fell in love woth little to none of those, or when you still feel fear of the belt loop noise…not trying to be crass but i have no similar reaction to belt loops so according to you this emotion you experience is neither real nor something to be believed in …and thats my point. You ask for verifiable repeatable evidence of God before you will believe in Him yet you state openly you still have visceral cognitive experiences with something completely and utterly personal to just you…while at the same time discounting any evidence given in this thread of similar type experiences by other people. According to what you have written in this thread the visceral cognitive experiences you have to belt loops does not rise to the level of evidence for having that visceral reaction to belt loops, but yet you know deep down inside it is a real thing that you experienced and no one can tell you differently. This is a perfect (albeit really bad, and i am sorry you have that reaction) example of something you need to keep a more open mind about going forward in the future. Dont be so quick to discount someone’s profound personal experiences.

Now, i don’t want to get into this too deeply here, but you have touched on a subject that pushes a lot of people away from God and that is a really bad father figure. I am not trying to Psychoanalyze or do anything like that in here, but the presence of a abusive or unloving or absent father in life can be completely detrimental in a number of ways. For starters, it leads many to try and “prove” themself in some manner, for some it creates a need for “self reliance” and for others it leads to deep trust issues that are hard to break. These can all be good in some regard but taken too far can be really bad for the person. It sounds like you have your stuff together which is good and makes me
Happy, but i do have to wonder if deep
Down you are not seeing God (and seeing luck) in places because deep
Down you dont trust there is a such thing as a loving Father. It is a hard wound to let heal and it is counter-intuitive to let it heal because that wound gives us motivation to keep going on for ourselves.

I wish you well brother and will be praying that in the small and big things, you might see luck as more divine intervention and see just how blessed you have been in your adult life. Looking back it can sometimes give a little more clarity.

I think Jpsmith1 has been very clear about the reasons for his lack of belief in God yet he is repeatedly asked to re-explain himself, often in response to replies that disregard, misstate or distort what he's said.

Regarding Stoicism, he follows a moral code which stresses living a virtuous life in harmony with nature. Its core virtues are courage, wisdom, justice and temperance. These are not controversial values and I think any reasonable person would consider this a good way to live one's life. You mentioned modern therapy uses it. Could that be because it works?

You accuse him of being dishonest with himself because he requires verifiable evidence to prove the existence of God yet accepts emotional experiences in other areas of his life. This is a core point you keep misstating even though it has been explained in detail by him (and me) in numerous prior posts. Also, to turn it around would it be fair to accuse you of being dishonest with yourself for not requiring verifiable evidence.

So once again yes emotional experiences are real but are not sufficient to determine what is objectively true about the universe. A person can have quirky reactions to belt loops and feel love without a scientific experiment. But it is not reasonable to say one's quirks proves the existence of evil spirits or his love provides the basis for a worldview. The feelings are real and valid but not evidence God caused them. Strength of belief has nothing to do with whether the belief is true.

Now expand this further, people of all religions report life changing experiences they attribute to their god or gods. Which ones should we believe? What if they contradict each other? If all the experiences should be treated equally and some of them lead persons away from God are they still valid? This is the Pandora's box you are opening by relying on personal experiences, it offers no way to tell the truth from fiction. As you say this is a perfect example of something you need to keep a more open mind about going forward in the future.

You say you are not going to psychoanalyze him then proceed to do so. You also need to be careful about that. If someone said you believe in God because you had a loving father and projected that onto God the Father you would justifiably consider that unfair and be upset. What cuts one way also cuts the other. That's the problem with your one sided analysis. It puts a negative cloud around the position you don't agree with but leaves yours unexamined. You should apply your psychological analysis equally to believers as well as nonbelievers.

So he is not dismissing anyone's personal experience and he is not asking for evidence that is irrefutable proof. But he is asking for more than personal experiences and ancient texts when deciding whether God exists.