Texas school shooting

[JustSomeGuy35]

Some people are just venting their frustrations with the situation. People react differently to these type of things. Some cry, some have axes to grind, etc.

The criticism of LE that's triggered a few of you, has turned out to be spot on in this case. You can argue about "orders" and protocols all you want but you're missing the general point, which is: the police had authority there and used it mainly to prevent people from trying to save the kids.

You don't have to like it. You may be able to explain why it was so. Regardless, they had the power to control the situation and chose not to engage the shooter. They stood outside doing something else.

Doesn't matter if it was choices made on the individual or Dept level. People don't really accept the "just following orders" talk because the Nuremberg trial testimonies played that out. I have first hand experience with stuff like that because of things my unit did in our first deployment. Some soldiers did things that we all felt were justified. Investigators and the American public felt differently. It is what is, doesn't matter if I think it's unfair for non-combat folks to decide what's acceptable in the heat of battle.

LE is not infallible and the creation of cellphone cameras revealed it in ways that a thousand Serpico's never could. Thus, decades of blind obedience and reverence for the thin blue line has come to an end. In other words, the pendulum has swung the other way. It's happened to the military as well.

Police expect absolute compliance. The people who are expected to comply, in turn, expect the police to handle shit properly. More and more we see that some officers, units, depts, etc., just aren't up to the task.

Deal with it.

 

[BjornF16]

Another thing I find ironic is how quickly the far right are willing to throw LEO's under the bus. Thin blue line indeed. Better go take those flags out by the street down now.

I’m not sure that is really the case. Depends upon your “culture”.

My former professional “culture” was hours of in depth, critical analysis of every aspect of the training/combat mission conducted. There was no rank in the debrief. A Lt could call out a Col. A wingman could call out a flight lead.

I think it is fair to call out LE mistakes.

I’m not a fan of condemnation of everyone there who was LE…clearly the OSC was screwing up and it appears that some of the LEOs present recognized this and finally disobeyed him and acted on their own initiative.

I’d prefer we all communicate civilly when making our points and counterpoints.

 

[MTN BUM]

You sound pretty triggered for conversation that did not include you. People like YOU want to assign religious garbage onto others but your skin and faith are both too thin to take any criticism in return.

I would disagree. I dont have thin skin. But I also dont have to tolerate being sterotyped (incorrectly) and then blasted for the stereotype.

It would be similar to me stating that anyone with your last name is inbred, therefore we obviously dont have to listen to anything you say because youre and inbred and unintelligent.

Productive conversations require us to move away from our assumptions and first establish an accurate understanding of our baselines.

 

[BjornF16]

Bingo.

I find the whole LE response discussion to be a distraction from the actual problem however. It's called a 'response' for a reason.

Tired of acting like there is nothing we can do about these events.

Someone previously pointed out that a handgun is no match for a rifle…

…a woman in WV disagrees.

Gunman Open Fires Into Birthday Party Crowd. A Guest Whips Out Her Handgun And Shoots Him Dead

A West Virginia woman fatally shot a man Wednesday night after he allegedly pulled out an AR-15 style rifle and began firing into a crowd at a birthday party.

dailycaller.com

Liberals/progressives/marxists immediately pivot to gun bans/gun control before facts are really known. Nothing they propose would have made a difference in Uvalde.

There were plenty of failures before the perp ever made it to classroom:
1. Failure to identify/report his mental illness
2. Failure to place him on “prohibited person” list
3. Failure to intervene with his mental issues
4. Failure to engage him prior to entering school
5. Failure to secure outer building door
6. Failure to secure classroom door
7. Failure to engage him inside school prior to entering classroom

 

[3325]

Sorry, but fewer and fewer are buying the propaganda any more.

Sorry for what? For something you said? No, I don't believe you are sorry. And that's fine, you don't have to be. But don't say you are when you are not.

I'm a police officer and I have not defended the Uvalde police. I don't agree with the Uvalde police response, or more properly lack thereof.

 

[3325]

I think it is fair to call out LE mistakes.

Mistakes at the least, probably failures. Totally fair. Very appropriate.

 

[Flyjunky]

Some people are just venting their frustrations with the situation. People react differently to these type of things. Some cry, some have axes to grind, etc.

The criticism of LE that's triggered a few of you, has turned out to be spot on in this case. You can argue about "orders" and protocols all you want but you're missing the general point, which is: the police had authority there and used it mainly to prevent people from trying to save the kids.

You don't have to like it. You may be able to explain why it was so. Regardless, they had the power to control the situation and chose not to engage the shooter. They stood outside doing something else.

Doesn't matter if it was choices made on the individual or Dept level. People don't really accept the "just following orders" talk because the Nuremberg trial testimonies played that out. I have first hand experience with stuff like that because of things my unit did in our first deployment. Some soldiers did things that we all felt were justified. Investigators and the American public felt differently. It is what is, doesn't matter if I think it's unfair for non-combat folks to decide what's acceptable in the heat of battle.

LE is not infallible and the creation of cellphone cameras revealed it in ways that a thousand Serpico's never could. Thus, decades of blind obedience and reverence for the thin blue line has come to an end. In other words, the pendulum has swung the other way. It's happened to the military as well.

Police expect absolute compliance. The people who are expected to comply, in turn, expect the police to handle shit properly. More and more we see that some officers, units, depts, etc., just aren't up to the task.

Deal with it.

Good post and thanks for your service!

 

[JustSomeGuy35]

There were plenty of failures before the perp ever made it to classroom:
1. Failure to identify/report his mental illness
2. Failure to place him on “prohibited person” list
3. Failure to intervene with his mental issues
4. Failure to engage him prior to entering school
5. Failure to secure outer building door
6. Failure to secure classroom door
7. Failure to engage him inside school prior to entering classroom

Exactly this ^

I'm not a supporter of red flag laws, but if some crazy turd says that they're gonna shoot up a school, I'm all for snatching them up.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, student safety is the school's responsibility. They truly screwed the pooch in Uvalde. That it became an even bigger shit storm by the inferior LE response is another issue altogether.

 

[browning2480]

Where is all the frustration for the teacher that left the door propped open? If we are going to do it, let’s spread it around and be fair.

 

[MTN BUM]

I respect and appreciate all the LEOs provide to our communities. I detest the defund movement. But as a human being I cannot imagine sitting in a hallway outside of a classroom where shots are still being fired (we know this based on timing of 911 calls from inside the class). Granted, I have no military or police background, but if I have a guy executing kids and teachers on the other side of the door and a way to get in there (which they did, they had 19 officers in there according to DPS chief), there is no way I could sit on orders for 40 minutes. No way. Now, maybe that tells us that we do not have all of the information and we need to wait for it, thats possible. But the way it looks with the info we do have is sad.

Remember, the primary problem here is not the LE response. Even a perfect response still results in 8-11 dead at minimum. The LE cluster is secondary, but a valuable learning lesson if we will look at it honestly.

The primary problem is how to we keep kids safe at school. And I would add the caveat of: How do we keep our kids safe at school without removing rights from law abiding citizens. I believe there are ways to achieve the goal without having the gun control debate swirl into nothingness, which is what we usually do.

 

[BjornF16]

Where is all the frustration for the teacher that left the door propped open? If we are going to do it, let’s spread it around and be fair.

I have pointed this out a couple of times.

I would hate to be the teacher that propped open exterior door…they must feel a tremendous amount of guilt.

We’ll never know about the deceased teacher and the failure to lock the classroom door.

What will be interesting to know is when the school sent out first lock down notice.

Did it go out before exterior door propped open? Is that why the teacher ran to get phone from car (and propped open door)?

Were school staff numb to lock downs due to tremendous number of lock downs they experienced due to porous border?

We have a saying in fighter community: Complacency kills…

 

[JustSomeGuy35]

Where is all the frustration for the teacher that left the door propped open? If we are going to do it, let’s spread it around and be fair.

Myself and several others have been talking about the school's failures. It just hasn't quite got the attention that LE response has. You gotta look back about 10-20 pages.

 

[3325]

Police expect absolute compliance.

We do, but we need to have a lawful presence and a lawful objective first.

The people who are expected to comply, in turn, expect the police to handle shit properly.

They do and that expectation is reasonable.

More and more we see that some officers, units, depts, etc., just aren't up to the task.

This is true.

Deal with it.

I will. Right now, I think I understand what some Vietnam vets probably felt like after Mai Lai - guilt by association. But I'll deal with it. I can only speak for me, not my profession.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

The answer to your request for protecting schools without cutting into rights is not rocket science, but will just cost money....

Ballistic glass at controlled entry ways to all schools. Ballistic closets in all classrooms for which the local LEOs have keys.


We all know this is not a gun issue, this is a person issue. These types of attacks are planned out sometimes for years and removing one tool will not negate other tools. We need to be real about what we are trying to do here, nothing we do will take away all risk. Unless we are willing to give up significant rights for the "safety" of everyone, we will never really get rid of the issue.

And I for one am not willing to give up those freedoms to people who are very willing to throw an entire section of the population who served in the military into the domestic terrorist watch list, or who say someone is a domestic terrorist because of who they voted for. There are much more common sense solutions to helping protect students and teachers, but they will cost money.

 

[JustSomeGuy35]

We do, but we need to have a lawful presence and a lawful objective first.

They do and that expectation is reasonable.

This is true.

I will. Right now, I think I understand what some Vietnam vets probably felt like after Mai Lai - guilt by association. But I'll deal with it. I can only speak for me, not my profession.

It's helluva shit sandwich to eat, friend. I've eaten it as well though in my situation, I was a bit more directly involved. Also, we were criticized for doing too much rather than too little.

My bestfriend was LE for 14 yrs in addition to being a Marine reservist. He has struggled with all the anti-cop and anti-military stuff over the years and ultimately left both professions. That was a huge loss for his community but the public wouldn't know that.

I appreciate your reply.

 

[JMasson]

How long have you served as an LEO?

Never been a LEO. I have however, devoted the better part of my adult life to closing with and destroying the enemies of my country. I've been in many dozens of gunfights over the years, against adversaries more heavily armed and experienced than a 19 year old kid with an AR-15 and a pistol. A fair few of those gunfights have been at ranges well inside 35 meters. I can very definitely agree that the cops didn't react, because they are incredible pussies.

Maybe not all of them, maybe just the ground force commander (or whatever cops call the senior guy on the ground). If there were two cops with a set on them, why didn't those two react? Following orders? That didn't work for the Gestapo, SS, Einsatzgruppen, etc...so why should it work in this situation? Following orders isn't a viable excuse. Even in the Army, I am only required to obey orders that are moral, legal and ethical. If an order doesn't fit that criteria (and I can justify it before a courts martial), I can refuse to obey it. In my opinion, any order to not enter that classroom, is immoral, unethical, and quite possible illegal.

 

[Wrench]

What saddens me is not pointing out the precautions we'll take next time, because at this rate, there will be a next time.

Instead, we're not looking at ourselves and analyzing how we can make a change. Sure, taking a specific tool from the arsenal of this guy may or may not have changed the outcome, but even if semi automatic rifles didn't exist, the internet does.

Parents use it as a pacifier for their kids. Kids use it as a "communication" tool....which literally stops communication. On the net, you can call people names, on the street, you earn a scar for that.

We allow games like GTA and fortnite to be normal. We used to watch the fall guy to see action and if you stayed up late.....you might see Crockett and Tubbs shoot a bad guy.....now killing is more common than heterosexual relationships on tv.

We argue about how we should remove more constitutional rights to fix the problems.....of course we don't look back pre columbine and realize that in the days of mail order rifles there were no issues.

We destroyed the two parent families and claim that both parents MUST work all while polishing the $120k boat behind the new truck in the house that has more square feet than every house our grandparents owned, combined.

We have made a mess. The answer isn't fines, fees rules and regulations....those already weren't working. What it takes is family, love, preparation and some community involvement.

If you have not spoken out about how your school handles it's business, gone to a city council meeting and expressed how you want your money spent....done anything in your community to actually turn some of this around, don't point your finger at someone else before you have that talk with yourself.

 

[*zap*]

It is a hard decision now as to whether we support LE blindly anymore. I imagine I will continue to stop and help an officer that may need assistance as I have my entire life. But I will also be very assertive/careful about my rights when dealing with LE initiated contacts and also will video all of those when I am able. Not just this incident but other incidents over the last 10 years have shown me that LE is lacking good officers in general and we really have to assert our rights as much as possible. The cop stops you walks up and asks 'do you know why I stopped you' is asking for a confession so you have no way to fight the violation he cites you for. Using officer trust to manipulate you to give up your rights without actually realizing what your doing. Lotsa bad stops happen every day where the cops do not uphold their oath to honor the US constitution. That is really just a basic example of how the whole 'protect and serve' thing has flown the coop. Lotsa bad LE officers....right up to the top and the doj/dhs is example of that.
Always be prepared to defend your own life and others...do not expect any help and you will not be disappointed. Cops have no obligation to protect anyone.

 

[BjornF16]

I’m not sure why any LEO supports the dems…they are the party always playing whack-a-mole with LE…too strong a response, not strong enough, defund, get out of schools…

Meanwhile, the drunken Irishman who pretends to be Hispanic calls for supporters to get in face of conservatives who care about the 2A:

Watch: White Beto Supporter Calls Black Cops ‘F*cking Disgusting Pig’

White supporters of Beto O’Rourke called black police officers “******* disgusting, ******* pig” at an anti-NRA protest in Houston, Texas.

www.breitbart.com

 

[3325]

What saddens me is not pointing out the precautions we'll take next time, because at this rate, there will be a next time.

Two things: 1) Hardened targets; 2) An aggressive police response. I don’t mean a reckless response, but a mindset and willingness to take calculated risks.

For too long, members of my profession have believed they have “the right” to survive their job. That they owe that to themselves and their families. Older cops who trained them told them, “Make sure you go home alive at the end of your sift.” This has to stop. Again, I’m not advocating recklessness, but a mindset and willingness to take calculated risks - risks that you may not survive.

I once read an article that said many gangbangers like to think of themselves as “street soldiers.” Cops must go forward from here with a mental two sided coin. One side of the coin has to say, “Officer Friendly.” The other side has to say, “Street Soldier.” Be able to turn the coin back and forth instantly.

The other stuff you mentioned, the social/societal stuff, are fine thoughts and worthy goals, but it’s generational and won’t right itself overnight.