Sublegal ram on guided sheep hunt

[JBrown1]

The "unfllled tag on guided sheep hunt" thread brought this question to mind. I have held off on posting this question, but then I saw where a well know AKF&G employee mentioned something that seemed to imply that guided hunters kill a lot of sub-legal sheep, and that the overall percentage of sub-legal take was similar between guided and non guided.

So my question: Is it really that common for a guided hunter to kill a sub-legal sheep? And how is the punishment handed down? Sheep confiscated and hunter fined, guide also fined? Do guided/outfits receive other consequences? Licenses pulled, concessions withdrawn, etc.?

I guess a second question would be: assuming the guide was entirely at fault for the sub-legal kill would the hunter be compensated in someway, such as a discounted follow-up hunt, or does the outfitter just say "you were responsible for pulling the trigger on the sub-legal sheep. "I guess you're out $30k......."

 

[Miflatlander91]

I'm interested in what everyone has to say. I honestly don't know and never thought about it until now, but as a nr I have to have a guide say we hunt our asses off for 7 days then my guide says o yeah he's legal. Why wouldn't I trust him he is the professional?

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[keller]

I believe if you pull the trigger you are responsible for your actions. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. But if you push the subject in court being guided and testify the guide said to shoot you would get a lighter sentence. But you would still be at fault

 

[thinhorn_AK]

The only person who should be held responsible for actions is the person who did the action. This includes being the one pulling the trigger on a hunt.

I can see why one might want to hold the guide accountable but at the end of the day one person pulled the trigger.

 

[z987k]

I would want to hold the guide accountable, but there are idiots that will pull the trigger on something when the guide is telling them not to.

 

[PMcGee]

I feel the person pulling the trigger should definitely be held responsible but when you have to be guided and the price you’re paying for these hunts the guide definitely has to be held accountable for something if he told you to shoot a sub legal ram.


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[Tanner]

If a guide instructed you to take the ram then a massive amount of responsibility is on them. Most guided hunters on a thin horn hunt would have an extremely hard time telling a legal ram from a sub legal when they are borderline, in my opinion, so a guide is the one at fault in that situation.

That being said, with a reputable outfitter and guides it should almost never happen.

 

[jhm2023]

I understand the hunter being the one held accountable if he shoots the wrong ram or shoots something against the guides advisement. What I fail to wrap my head around is the fact that the state requires a hunter to have a guide. Then, if the hunter shoots a ram that required guide tells him to ends up being sublegal, it's the hunter taking the repercussions for shooting a sublegal that this required guide told him was good to go. The guide is required to be within 100 yards of the hunter when they attempt to take game, so you can't say the guide was too far away. Are you not paying a ridiculous amount of money for the guides "expertise"? If not, what's the point of the guide requirement at that point besides making it a financial barrier to entry for hunting sheep?

I don't have a dog in this fight as I only hunt sheep DIY. These are just my opinions and thoughts on the matter.

 

[WalterH]

Most of the “guides” guiding these hunters in Alaska are assistants, and not the more experienced master or registered guide.

Currently there is no requirement that the guide with the client has any previous experience hunting the animal that they are guiding the client for.

It happens quite often that sheep clients wind up with a non-resident assistant guide with zero experience hunting or judging sheep.

 

[Steve O]

I am not a litigious person, but if some POS outfitter did that to me I would spend every penny I had to ruin that whole operation.

But on second thought, I can’t imagine hiring someone who would do that to me in the first place.

You cannot make that mistake and call yourself a “professional”. Period.

 

[Holmes]

The only person who should be held responsible for actions is the person who did the action. This includes being the one pulling the trigger on a hunt.

I can see why one might want to hold the guide accountable but at the end of the day one person pulled the trigger.

Mostly agree with Thinhorn here. A person should never be able to pay their way out of responsibility. I don't care if the hunt cost $30 or $30,000. The number doesn't change the decision to pull the trigger. The hunter is responsible for the trigger pull. Whatever the consequences are for taking a non-legal animal - that's on the hunter.

I disagree with it being the "only" person though. Someone filling a (state mandated) guide role should be held accountable for not doing their (state licensed) job right. There has to be some repercussion, or else guides could just lead clients to break the law all the time and keep on guiding. Every other state-licensed profession faces official repercussions if their work is out of code, guides should too.
But, the thing the guide did wrong is not "harvest of a non legal animal", the hunter did that. The guide's screw up is different.

 

[Holmes]

I guess a second question would be: assuming the guide was entirely at fault for the sub-legal kill would the hunter be compensated in someway, such as a discounted follow-up hunt, or does the outfitter just say "you were responsible for pulling the trigger on the sub-legal sheep. "I guess you're out $30k......."

I could imagine a *good* guiding outfit refunding the amount of just the guide service, but not the outfitting, flying, etc. In other words, a small portion of the cost. I have a hard time imagining any outfit reimbursing the entire costs because of a non-legal animal.

 

[TheGrayRider]

Many guides and hunters in Alaska get fooled by the 50 inch minimum on bull moose in some units. Gotta be careful there. Easy to get confused on judging width on moose antlers.

 

[BRTreedogs]

What if the guide says idk he is boarder line you should pass, then the hunter puts a bunch of pressure of him because he has spent a ton of money, day 9 and the only ram they have gotten on.. So the guide says it on you but again I think you should pass?

That's how I see most of these situations going. I doubt many of them the guide is confident its legal and it turns out not to be.

I'll admit pure speculation on my part but what has a guide got to loose telling you to pass? A hit on kill percentage and a tip?

When they have a list of hunters on wait list to fill your spot.

 

[Tanner]

What if the guide says idk he is boarder line you should pass, then the hunter puts a bunch of pressure of him because he has spent a ton of money, day 9 and the only ram they have gotten on.. So the guide says it on you but again I think you should pass?

That's how I see most of these situations going. I doubt many of them the guide is confident its legal and it turns out not to be.

I'll admit pure speculation on my part but what has a guide got to loose telling you to pass? A hit on kill percentage and a tip?

When they have a list of hunters on wait list to fill your spot.

If your resolve isn’t strong enough as a guide to tell somebody that they are absolutely not shooting a particular ram under no circumstances, then you should find another job. I’ve been in this situation as a very young guide (21 guiding a guy in his mid 40s) and was pressured hard but he client to shoot a nice ram that I had determined to be short of full curl. There was no back and forth. A NO from a guide is a NO.

 

[Steve O]

Any tip I have given on a guided hunt depends nothing on if I filled my tag or not. It’s all about the effort.

The guided hunter is paying for the experience of the guide and outfit. You have to be able to trust your guide 100%.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I understand the hunter being the one held accountable if he shoots the wrong ram or shoots something against the guides advisement. What I fail to wrap my head around is the fact that the state requires a hunter to have a guide. Then, if the hunter shoots a ram that required guide tells him to ends up being sublegal, it's the hunter taking the repercussions for shooting a sublegal that this required guide told him was good to go. The guide is required to be within 100 yards of the hunter when they attempt to take game, so you can't say the guide was too far away. Are you not paying a ridiculous amount of money for the guides "expertise"? If not, what's the point of the guide requirement at that point besides making it a financial barrier to entry for hunting sheep?

I don't have a dog in this fight as I only hunt sheep DIY. These are just my opinions and thoughts on the matter.

Guide can be prosecuted if his/her client shoots a sub legal ram. An acquaintance went through this in AK and he was lucky to get a small fine and temporarily lose fishing/hunting/guiding rights for a year.

Most guides are not rock stars and all have to get their first X number of sheep hunts under their belts. Unfortunately clients are the ones paying full price for the guides to learn the ropes.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I could imagine a *good* guiding outfit refunding the amount of just the guide service, but not the outfitting, flying, etc. In other words, a small portion of the cost. I have a hard time imagining any outfit reimbursing the entire costs because of a non-legal animal.

If the guide is adamant that the ram is legal, the outfitter should provide a free hunt to the hunter (minus transport and other incidentals). Most won't do that and there is likely a clause somewhere in the contract that holds them harmless.

Know a guy that got 5 bad yardage readings (be thorough) from the guide and shot under the ram; 200 yards off. Long story short: because the hunter took a shot based upon the yardage provided by the guide, there was no discount on the follow up hunt despite the guide screwing up.

 

[BRTreedogs]

If your resolve isn’t strong enough as a guide to tell somebody that they are absolutely not shooting a particular ram under no circumstances, then you should find another job. I’ve been in this situation as a very young guide (21 guiding a guy in his mid 40s) and was pressured hard but he client to shoot a nice ram that I had determined to be short of full curl. There was no back and forth. A NO from a guide is a NO.

What if he tells you to F off?
You going to push him down the hill and get arrested for assault?

 

[schmalzy]

If the guide is adamant that the ram is legal, the outfitter should provide a free hunt to the hunter (minus transport and other incidentals). Most won't do that and there is likely a clause somewhere in the contract that holds them harmless.

Know a guy that got 5 bad yardage readings (be thorough) from the guide and shot under the ram; 200 yards off. Long story short: because the hunter took a shot based upon the yardage provided by the guide, there was no discount on the follow up hunt despite the guide screwing up.

Slightly off topic but it ultimately relates; I chose to bring my own gear over stories like that, specifically rangefinders. So many variables and things outside of your control, why add another that is easily preventable like gear affect the outcome of your hunt. IMO, The same goes for judging sheep. ADFGs guide on aging is easy to use and study. I wasn’t going to shoot until my guide gave me the green light AND I and felt the same.

Obviously I am not even close to the same level or same universe of judging sheep as my guide was, but regardless there was no reason not to study it and know the regulations. Ultimately it was his job and responsibility to make the call, but it was definitely advantageous to have two sets of eyes judging the ram and confirming legality using all of the methods available.


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