Sublegal ram on guided sheep hunt

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

He meant that the guides yardage reading was 200 years off. So I imagine that he was told "350 yards" and it proved to be 550 yards, or whatever.

Correct.

Of course on Rokslide, guides are revered, infallible, and walk on water so it is always the hunter at fault.

 

[IBen]

I'm 47 and seen about a dozen Dall's on the hoof in my life from a long way off. If I'm going to be on the hook for missing a call on age or size, exactly what service am I paying for?

With the price of a sheep hunt, the outfit needs to have a bunch of skin in the game. I have to believe somewhere in that 30ish k is room for insurance.

Im willing to bet most sub legal sheep are taken when the guide tells you to shoot 2nd from left and hunter shoots 2nd from right or whatever.

I'm 47 and seen about a dozen Dall's on the hoof in my life from a long way off. If I'm going to be on the hook for missing a call on age or size, exactly what service am I paying for?

With the price of a sheep hunt, the outfit needs to have a bunch of skin in the game. I have to believe somewhere in that 30ish k is room for insurance.

Is the hunter liable for the guides penalties if the hunter shoots the wrong ram?

Correct.

Of course on Rokslide, guides are revered, infallible, and walk on water so it is always the hunter at fault.

so he missed and tried to blame the guide. wonder if the guide will blame the rangefinder? Maybe vortex should be liable for the hunt contract now?

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Im willing to bet most sub legal sheep are taken when the guide tells you to shoot 2nd from left and hunter shoots 2nd from right or whatever.

Is the hunter liable for the guides penalties if the hunter shoots the wrong ram?

so he missed and tried to blame the guide. wonder if the guide will blame the rangefinder? Maybe vortex should be liable for the hunt contract now?

Fair on the first part and probably likely the main culprit. You want some fun. Go to the islands where ocean side and mountain side vary depending on who is facing what. That makes for some fun when figuring out which animal the guide is telling you to take.

If the hunter shoots the ram that the guide tells him/her to, then that is on the guide. Unfortunately the hunter is typically out of the complete cost of the hunt as well as the ram. The guide may be on the hook for fines, loss of fishing/hunting/guiding privileges, etc. If the hunter shoots the wrong ram, then the hunter should make things as right as possible for the guide.

Yep, the guide screwed up. The guide ranged five times and all five were off by 200 yards. The only mistake on that shot the hunter made was trusting the guide to put the rangefinder's reticle on the ram and take five individual readings. That was too complicated for the guide since even a single reading being off would have been enough to question the distance.

Again, I get this is Rokslide where guides are revered Gods.

 

[Wrench]

Ben, I can't speak for everyone, but if I tell you I can put a bullet there.....it's because I can. I wholeheartedly agree that there's potential to get hung up by the hunter's actions.....but how many stories have we heard where the hunter who's trained for two years shows up and his "guide" is a college freshman who has about half as many days in the field as a 4th grader.

Honor is a tough one to police, and as stated counting anuli can be argued among bios.....but how many guides ask clients to sign agreements stating their guide may ask the client to violate the law, but only if they can't remember the law or see very well......good luck.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I'm 47 and seen about a dozen Dall's on the hoof in my life from a long way off. If I'm going to be on the hook for missing a call on age or size, exactly what service am I paying for?

With the price of a sheep hunt, the outfit needs to have a bunch of skin in the game. I have to believe somewhere in that 30ish k is room for insurance.

I agree with this 100%! This was my first thought…If I pay $30k for a guide service, required by state law, and they tell me to shoot an illegal ram, the state and the guide should have to work it out. Only exception should be if I ignore the guide and shoot one he thinks I should pass.

 

[IBen]

Fair on the first part and probably likely the main culprit. You want some fun. Go to the islands where ocean side and mountain side vary depending on who is facing what. That makes for some fun when figuring out which animal the guide is telling you to take.

If the hunter shoots the ram that the guide tells him/her to, then that is on the guide. Unfortunately the hunter is typically out of the complete cost of the hunt as well as the ram. The guide may be on the hook for fines, loss of fishing/hunting/guiding privileges, etc. If the hunter shoots the wrong ram, then the hunter should make things as right as possible for the guide.

Yep, the guide screwed up. The guide ranged five times and all five were off by 200 yards. The only mistake on that shot the hunter made was trusting the guide to put the rangefinder's reticle on the ram and take five individual readings. That was too complicated for the guide since even a single reading being off would have been enough to question the distance.

Again, I get this is Rokslide where guides are revered Gods.

Sounds like an optic malfunction. Sounds like the only person who thinks guides are gods is your buddy since he trusted him when a 200 yard difference is discernable with the naked eye. Is the guide also responsible for dialing in his dope etc.? Is your friend a competent hunter or not? The guide is not a hand holder. It seems like people itt expect guides to be a babysitter. Not really trying to be confrontational here it just that anyone demanding a refund for such a scenario is questionable behavior imo.

So guide could lose his job and you want:

“If the hunter shoots the wrong ram, then the hunter should make things as right as possible for the guide.”

Seems fair. There’s enough legislation with hunting especially in Alaska there doesn’t need to be any more

 

[JBrown1]

On a smaller scale I recently hunted a much anticipated low odds antelope tag in a super unit. After looking over 20 odd bucks and passing some really big ones we set up a a buck with does. I didn't think the buck was very big but my guide said it was, so I took him. Much to my horror, the buck was tiny. As angry as I was despite my doubts about the bucks size, I took the shot.

It was on me.

It’s easier to say, “I took the shot. It was on me....” when the issue was that you took a smaller than hoped for pronghorn.

Now imagine the same scenario, but you have paid $30k for the hunt, and instead of an animal that you are obviously familiar with and comfortable judging, the animal in question is a dall sheep, which is a species that you have never been within 1,000 miles of.

And, now that we are talking dall sheep, you don’t head home with a smaller than hoped for pronghorn, instead you head home empty handed because the troopers seized the cape, horns and meat from your sheep and fined you $500.

Oh, and now you have a violation that will be permanently on your record.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

Most of the “guides” guiding these hunters in Alaska are assistants, and not the more experienced master or registered guide.

Currently there is no requirement that the guide with the client has any previous experience hunting the animal that they are guiding the client for.

It happens quite often that sheep clients wind up with a non-resident assistant guide with zero experience hunting or judging sheep.

This is the norm, nowadays.

 

[isItFallYet]

This is the norm, nowadays.

What are the reasons for this? More hunters? Cheaper?

 

[Mykolaivka887]

What are the reasons for this? More hunters? Cheaper?

I'm speculating, but possibly (probably?) the biggest reason is that resident Class-A assistant guides are few and far between, and not many college age Alaska residents are coming into the industry as a career choice.

 

[Marbles]

Old story, but related.

Sheep hunter sentenced for unlawfully taking under-Sized Dall Sheep

www.justice.gov

 

[SLDMTN]

A lot of outfitters don’t want to hire residents cause once they’ve been in there, odds are they’ll be back. Whether it’s for the outfit or not unfortunately.

Had a prominent sheep outfit that wouldn’t even continue the conversation this fall when they heard I was a resident. They’d been burned too many times…

I love the policy @Tanner mentioned where the guide forfeits their pay if they kill a sub. Sure make a guy think twice before he says, take em.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

Old story, but related.

Sheep hunter sentenced for unlawfully taking under-Sized Dall Sheep

www.justice.gov

Interesting read about ol' Joe.

 

[Turkeygetpwnd38]

It’s easier to say, “I took the shot. It was on me....” when the issue was that you took a smaller than hoped for pronghorn.

Now imagine the same scenario, but you have paid $30k for the hunt, and instead of an animal that you are obviously familiar with and comfortable judging, the animal in question is a dall sheep, which is a species that you have never been within 1,000 miles of.

And, now that we are talking dall sheep, you don’t head home with a smaller than hoped for pronghorn, instead you head home empty handed because the troopers seized the cape, horns and meat from your sheep and fined you $500.

Oh, and now you have a violation that will be permanently on your record.

I had something similar happen on a bison hunt. I had a WY cow tag on refuge. I hired a guide for two purposes- to help me get the thing out and make sure I was shooting a cow and not year old bull- they look similar. There is a lot to this story but ended up shooting a bison my guide was standing right next to me saying to shoot. Dropped it, he said great shot and we ride over. We get up to it and it’s a year old bull. Guide immediately asked why I shot that bison, denies ever telling me to shoot, then he said he was telling me to shoot a different one. Ended up getting confiscated and a fine for $300-500ish if I remember right. Nothing happened to the guide.

I agree on hunts like sheep, it’s understood you are paying for the guides experience/knowledge. It’s crazy they don’t get penalized in some way (assuming the sheep they tell you to shoot is sun legal and not any of the variations mentioned above).

 

[IBen]

I'm speculating, but possibly (probably?) the biggest reason is that resident Class-A assistant guides are few and far between, and not many college age Alaska residents are coming into the industry as a career choice.

I had something similar happen on a bison hunt. I had a WY cow tag on refuge. I hired a guide for two purposes- to help me get the thing out and make sure I was shooting a cow and not year old bull- they look similar. There is a lot to this story but ended up shooting a bison my guide was standing right next to me saying to shoot. Dropped it, he said great shot and we ride over. We get up to it and it’s a year old bull. Guide immediately asked why I shot that bison, denies ever telling me to shoot, then he said he was telling me to shoot a different one. Ended up getting confiscated and a fine for $300-500ish if I remember right. Nothing happened to the guide.

I agree on hunts like sheep, it’s understood you are paying for the guides experience/knowledge. It’s crazy they don’t get penalized in some way (assuming the sheep they tell you to shoot is sun legal and not any of the variations mentioned above).

They guides do get penalized. Why do people itt think they don’t?

 

[S-3 ranch]

This discussion reaffirmed my concern , and why I can’t find a stone sheep hunt with any trophy rams , every outfit tells me the ram will be 8 1/2 years old , it’s a expencive risk for a lackluster ram

 

[FLATHEAD]

Cant make me hire a guide as a NR in AK or Canada, and then assume
no responsibility. It's all on them IMO.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Sounds like an optic malfunction. Sounds like the only person who thinks guides are gods is your buddy since he trusted him when a 200 yard difference is discernable with the naked eye. Is the guide also responsible for dialing in his dope etc.? Is your friend a competent hunter or not? The guide is not a hand holder. It seems like people itt expect guides to be a babysitter. Not really trying to be confrontational here it just that anyone demanding a refund for such a scenario is questionable behavior imo.

So guide could lose his job and you want:

“If the hunter shoots the wrong ram, then the hunter should make things as right as possible for the guide.”

Seems fair. There’s enough legislation with hunting especially in Alaska there doesn’t need to be any more

I hunt with the guy multiple times a year. He's competent at hunting, spotting and shooting.

And thanks to the Rokslide crew, I now know that it is never the guide's job to do anything associated with the shot including ranging.

 

[Marbles]

There are a lot of potential variants of this situation. In general though, these are my thoughts.

A hunter who takes a sublegal ram is 100% responsible for his actions and should have educated himself.

Likewise, a guide who tells a hunter to take a sublegal ram is 100% responsible for doing that. Short of a hunter who blatantly tells a guide to pound sand, the guide should face consequences if a sublegal ram is taken. However, this does nothing to reduce the responsibility of the hunter.

Both should be fined. Neither owes restitution to the other.

In the end, taking a ram should be a discussion between the guide and hunter, if either is unsure, the animal should not be taken.

 

[wind gypsy]

I've now been on 2 guided hunts and seen enough or heard enough stories of really sorry "hunters" to know the guide can't always be to blame. Lots of dudes with minimum time behind a rifle with a big ass scope that think they need to crank it up to the max magnification, which is a recipe for that type of guy to shoot the wrong animal. I can see the potential for a lot of he said/ she said stuff there.

Better hire a guide/outfitter you can trust or better yet, dont shoot a squeeker ram that isn't obviously legal. It seems reasonable to me that a hunter be held accountable for what they shoot, but penalties for guides shouldn't be off the table either. A good outfitter should definitely go out of their way to try to make it right if they give a green light on a sublegal ram.

As far as the guide ranging thing - There's a bunch of ways to accidentally range something in front of or behind the target and get an errant reading. The other thing a lot of people dont know is the reticle on range finders is frequently a little off from where the center of the lazer is and you can be missing smaller targets quite easily if you are unaware.