Sublegal ram on guided sheep hunt

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Yeah, I don't range for my clients, either. My policy is, point-and-shoot. A client's rifle should be able to hit the mark out to 300 +/- yards without having to dig out a damn rangefinder (lol).

You should publish a list on this site for the activities that you will perform as a guide and have RS make it a sticky. This would be very beneficial to hunters as it would shed light on exactly what tasks they can expect a guide to perform.

 

[Mykolaivka887]

You should publish a list on this site for the activities that you will perform as a guide and have RS make it a sticky. This would be very beneficial to hunters as it would shed light on exactly what tasks they can expect a guide to perform.

That's an idea. I won't coddle them, that's for sure. They have to come with the mindset that we're a team and that I'm not going to babysit them, and they're going to have to follow instructions to the letter and like it. In return, they'll get an education like none other. It's a trade-off.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

and they're going to have to follow instructions to the letter and like it.

I would be 100% ok with a guide that had these expectations. In return, if I follow that guides instructions to the letter and shoot an illegal animal, I feel like that should be on him….

 

[GotDraw?]

I believe if you pull the trigger you are responsible for your actions. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. But if you push the subject in court being guided and testify the guide said to shoot you would get a lighter sentence. But you would still be at fault

@keller

Are you blindly guessing that the guided hunter "would get a lighter sentence" or is your information factual and based on a known circumstance?

If you are not guessing and speaking from fact, then please cite the reference.

JL

 

[GotDraw?]

I am not a litigious person, but if some POS outfitter did that to me I would spend every penny I had to ruin that whole operation.

But on second thought, I can’t imagine hiring someone who would do that to me in the first place.

You cannot make that mistake and call yourself a “professional”. Period.

Hah- I venture a very strong guess that you would not be foolish enough to spend every penny you had to "ruin the operation". You would quickly end up penniless and have made a point that no one cares about. I'm guessing you're chest thumping and have never been to the real rodeo before and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of your own money on real litigation. It is not fun and it is almost always a waste of your time, money and energy.

JL

 

[GotDraw?]

Hah- I venture a very strong guess that you would not be foolish enough to spend every penny you had to "ruin the operation". You would quickly end up penniless and have made a point that no one cares about. I'm guessing you're chest thumping and have never been to the real rodeo before and spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of your own money on real litigation. It is not fun and it is almost always a waste of your time, money and energy. I do agree that if you hire a LICENSED professional that the guides license should offer some protection to the client for what is legally known as "Detrimental Reliance".

JL

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

It’s easier to say, “I took the shot. It was on me....” when the issue was that you took a smaller than hoped for pronghorn.

Now imagine the same scenario, but you have paid $30k for the hunt, and instead of an animal that you are obviously familiar with and comfortable judging, the animal in question is a dall sheep, which is a species that you have never been within 1,000 miles of.

And, now that we are talking dall sheep, you don’t head home with a smaller than hoped for pronghorn, instead you head home empty handed because the troopers seized the cape, horns and meat from your sheep and fined you $500.

Oh, and now you have a violation that will be permanently on your record.

I have more time in sheep country than antelope country and don't live 1000 miles from either one. I would have rather went home empty handed, and my socks are worth more than $500.

Not even what your trying to say here?

 

[Jerryleesak]

we as hunters are each responsible for everything that we pull the trigger on. It is on us to know the regulations and ensure that we abide by those rules. Having said that i also believe that guides should be held legally responsible (penalized) for having a client harvest a sub legal ram. Sheep tags are hard to come by so why would you want to harvest a sub legal sheep on a once in a lifetime hunt?

 

[Jerryleesak]

I had a very difficult time “liking” your post, because I don’t like it at all, but unfortunately it is very true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alaska does have requirements for assistant guides to be qualified to hunt in the field without the master guide present. They must be a Class A assistant guide which requires previous experience in the Hunt Area and with the game animal being hunted. This does not mean that the assistant is a true professional just that they have met the minimum qualifications. Unfortunately the client often does not know the experience level in advance unless he is savy enough to ask.

 

[JBrown1]

I have more time in sheep country than antelope country and don't live 1000 miles from either one. I would have rather went home empty handed, and my socks are worth more than $500.

Not even what your trying to say here?

I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking of the hypothetical midwestern hunter who heads north for his one and only sheep hunt. I should have said, "Put yourself into the shoes of a midwestern hunter who...."

And what I was trying to say was this: taking home a smaller than hoped for antelope due to guide error is difficult to accept. But having your once in a lifetime sheep confiscated, a looming court date that will end with a violation permanently on your record, being out $30k + the $500 fine? I believe that would be even more difficult to accept.

Can you imagine the trip home? How would you explain that to your wife and friends?

And in my defense(?), I assumed that you shot a lesser trophy, I didn't realize that it was one that was so small that you would have rather gone home empty handed. That had to sting. I hope that you nail a monster next time.

And I have to ask, what type of socks do you wear that are worth more than $500/

 

[Mykolaivka887]

we as hunters are each responsible for everything that we pull the trigger on. It is on us to know the regulations and ensure that we abide by those rules. Having said that i also believe that guides should be held legally responsible (penalized) for having a client harvest a sub legal ram. Sheep tags are hard to come by so why would you want to harvest a sub legal sheep on a once in a lifetime hunt?

In 98% of incidences in Alaska involving a guided client who kills a sub-legal big game animal (bear moose, sheep, caribou, goat, etc) on the insistence of the guide, the guide is solely held responsible and no criminal charges are filed against said client. There's hundreds of case histories out there supporting this prosecutorial fact.

 

[isItFallYet]

And I have to ask, what type of socks do you wear that are worth more than $500/

I must know this too!

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking of the hypothetical midwestern hunter who heads north for his one and only sheep hunt. I should have said, "Put yourself into the shoes of a midwestern hunter who...."

And what I was trying to say was this: taking home a smaller than hoped for antelope due to guide error is difficult to accept. But having your once in a lifetime sheep confiscated, a looming court date that will end with a violation permanently on your record, being out $30k + the $500 fine? I believe that would be even more difficult to accept.

Can you imagine the trip home? How would you explain that to your wife and friends?

And in my defense(?), I assumed that you shot a lesser trophy, I didn't realize that it was one that was so small that you would have rather gone home empty handed. That had to sting. I hope that you nail a monster next time.

And I have to ask, what type of socks do you wear that are worth more than $500/

I see where you are going, but am unwilling to release the hunter who took the shot from responsibility. If I were in this hypothetical situation I would tell my wife "I relied on the guide to much, and consumed a massive amount of our resources only to not be prepared". My friends don't know what wild sheep are, so no explanation there.

I was being funny about the socks for perspective on the expense, but 10 sets of Darn toughs with liners will get you mighty close to $500.

 

[Billy Goat]

Almost Moose - Bowhunter

A perfect shot always feels good, but it doesn't always produce a perfect ending.

www.bowhunter.com

I remember reading this article when it first came out and it stuck with me, ultimately the hunter is responsible.

I feel like this one is a little different as it was a DIY hunt, tho situation turned a little.


If I'm paying good money for a guide, their experience, and supposed qualifications, if they screw up on an aspect of what was supposed to be their specialty, its likely going to not be pretty, just like any other professional I hired.

 

[Bluto]

Wait…there are outfitters accepting $30k+ for sheep hunts and sending clients out with greenhorns that may or may not have any clue what they’re doing?

I swear. Everything on earth is now a scam.
Is this just the big money sheep hunts or is big game outfitting for everything like this?

 

[Jerryleesak]

Money causes people to do things they otherwise would not do. The good news is that the large majority of people are good and honest. Don't let the bad actors ruin it for the rest.

 

[Jerryleesak]

Im willing to bet most sub legal sheep are taken when the guide tells you to shoot 2nd from left and hunter shoots 2nd from right or whatever.

Is the hunter liable for the guides penalties if the hunter shoots the wrong ram?

so he missed and tried to blame the guide. wonder if the guide will blame the rangefinder? Maybe vortex should be liable for the hunt contract now?

 

[Jerryleesak]

I heard of a guide in Alaska guiding in unit 20A this year. He booked 15 clients when he knew he only had 5 legal rams in his area. I heard this from a good friend who was an assistant guide for this guy for the last 5 years and quit this year because of this practice. Not all guides have good intentions. Thankfully most guides have more integrity than this fellow. The he said, she said, argument on who decided to shoot which ram is something that any seasoned guide would have addressed prior to the shot being fired.

 

[Bighorn80]

we as hunters are each responsible for everything that we pull the trigger on. It is on us to know the regulations and ensure that we abide by those rules. Having said that i also believe that guides should be held legally responsible (penalized) for having a client harvest a sub legal ram. Sheep tags are hard to come by so why would you want to harvest a sub legal sheep on a once in a lifetime hunt?

100% agree. If your going to hunt anything with a size/age restriction, you should know what a legal animal looks like. Whether you are a resident hunting sheep for the first time or a non resident going with a guide. That being said, the assistant guide should know the same. Hate to say it, but there are some out there more than willing to send a client home with a ram that barely squeaks by just to fill a tag. So if a guide tells a hunter to shoot a ram he "thinks" is legal, but is not, the responsibility is shared imo.

I personally go by the "no brainer" rule. If its not, I don't want to take it home with me-let him live another year. I think if guides and resident hunters would take more of this approach there would be more of those no brainers out there to hunt.

 

[william schmaltz]

The hunter that shot the ram below was reportedly assured by his guide that this ram was 9 years old several times. I do not know this hunter's/guide's story beyond that.

I could understand this hunter's frustration in this case if before the hunt he interviewed numerous guides and stated that he has no idea what he's looking at and would be relying on the guide and the guide subsequently assured the hunter that he was up to the task and the hunter had nothing to worry about. I can also see both sides argued and agree that it's on the guy pulling the trigger to know what he's looking at. But I'd be pretty pissed if I did thorough due diligence when hiring a guide, stated I had no idea what I was looking at and would be heavily relying on the guide for the legality call, and the guide stated he would have my back and ultimately failed.

Of the 11 sublegal rams killed on guided hunts this year in AK, reportedly there was one instance where the rams disappeared and reappeared and the hunter admitted to shooting the wrong ram.