Sublegal ram on guided sheep hunt

[Steve O]

What if he tells you to F off?
You going to push him down the hill and get arrested for assault?

If the hunter tells you to F off, make sure you are digiscoping the ram and have the conversation while that us running and you are in the clear as the guide. If not, take out your phone and record the conversation of you telling your hunter it is not legal. Then it is the HUNTER’s mistake and liability.

Now that purebloods can again legally get into Canada, Alaska is a distant 3rd on my Dall list. Unless my son takes up residency there…and I can be responsible for myself.

 

[Tanner]

What if he tells you to F off?
You going to push him down the hill and get arrested for assault?

I’ll gladly take a rifle and/or ammo from somebody that proves themselves to be outside the realm of reasonable on a guided hunt.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Most of the “guides” guiding these hunters in Alaska are assistants, and not the more experienced master or registered guide.

Currently there is no requirement that the guide with the client has any previous experience hunting the animal that they are guiding the client for.

It happens quite often that sheep clients wind up with a non-resident assistant guide with zero experience hunting or judging sheep.

I had a very difficult time “liking” your post, because I don’t like it at all, but unfortunately it is very true.


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[thinhorn_AK]

I’ll gladly take a rifle and/or ammo from somebody that proves themselves to be outside the realm of reasonable on a guided hunt.

Sure you would.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I’ll gladly take a rifle and/or ammo from somebody that proves themselves to be outside the realm of reasonable on a guided hunt.

Say that out loud and think about it. Do it twice.

 

[Tanner]

Sure you would.

If you’d like a list of phone numbers of clients I’ve previously guided to check on my resolve, I’d be happy to provide it. I’m shocked that this issue is even a question to some folks.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

If you’d like a list of phone numbers of clients I’ve previously guided to check on my resolve, I’d be happy to provide it. I’m shocked that this issue is even a question to some folks.

Being a guide does not give you warrant to take property from people. Sorry.

 

[Tanner]

I’ll say a couple more things on this topic.

The outfit I have worked for in Alaska makes it very clear to guides: if you guide a sub legal ram, you Forfeit all pay for the hunt, and it is a huge black stain on both the outfit and the guide.

There is really no decision at all if it comes down to having a ruined client/guide relationship due to not allowing somebody to shoot a sub-legal or questionable ram, or a tarnished record of killing a sub legal ram.

There can be absolutely no debate or room for interpretation when it comes to a guide giving instructions to not shoot a ram. If there is, something has broken in the line of communication and hierarchy on the hunt.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Slightly off topic but it ultimately relates; I chose to bring my own gear over stories like that, specifically rangefinders. So many variables and things outside of your control, why add another that is easily preventable like gear affect the outcome of your hunt. IMO, The same goes for judging sheep. ADFGs guide on aging is easy to use and study. I wasn’t going to shoot until my guide gave me the green light AND I and felt the same.

Obviously I am not even close to the same level or same universe of judging sheep as my guide was, but regardless there was no reason not to study it and know the regulations. Ultimately it was his job and responsibility to make the call, but it was definitely advantageous to have two sets of eyes judging the ram and confirming legality using all of the methods available.


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Problem with aging is you can have three biologists age the same ram and you will get 2-3 different ages. If the "experts" cannot do it, then it is unlikely that a lower 49 hunter can do it. Guides won't fair much better.

 

[bradb]

On a sheep hunt I was on the guide said if he makes the call and it's not legal outfitter brings your back the next year. We passed a for sure legal by length ram on day 1 as it was still only 7( outfitter gets penalized for too many under 8, even if legal) I was like dang he is a good ram and guide said yep and going to be a giant if it makes it a couple years.
The one I shot we had too get pretty close for the guide to be sure he was 8. Guide was great.
I know the outfitter did have 1 illegal ram that season. Heard the outfitter pretty much defending the guide call as the ram was super tricky. I think it was some huge growth between 1 and 2, to the thinking no possible way that isn't the 3 ring and there had too be a 2 in between

 

[z987k]

Stop shooting sheep based on age. Problem solved. Full curl and especially double broomed can be seen from quite a ways in a good scope.

 

[JBrown1]

Stop shooting sheep based on age. Problem solved. Full curl and especially double broomed can be seen from quite a ways in a good scope.

Shooting sheep based on age is a problem, but we know that some sub-legals are shot due to a mistake on full curl or brooming.

Have you ever heard a biologist say that shooting rams on age is the only problem? When I have talked to them it seems that sub legal sheep are mistakenly shot due to a mixture of the three methods.

They do recommend against shooting based on age, but they don’t seem to think that is the source of all sub-legal, ime.

 

[Wrench]

I'm 47 and seen about a dozen Dall's on the hoof in my life from a long way off. If I'm going to be on the hook for missing a call on age or size, exactly what service am I paying for?

With the price of a sheep hunt, the outfit needs to have a bunch of skin in the game. I have to believe somewhere in that 30ish k is room for insurance.

 

[Wrench]

Let's be realistic here, we're talking about not losing an animal and facing criminal charges....not getting ground shrink on a bull or buck.

 

[JBrown1]

I'm 47 and seen about a dozen Dall's on the hoof in my life from a long way off. If I'm going to be on the hook for missing a call on age or size, exactly what service am I paying for?

This is the part that I don't understand: when people want to say, "the guy pulling the trigger is ultimately responsible for determining the legality of a sheep." I mean really? How many NR hunters have enough experience judging sheep that they would argue with their guide when the guide says, "That is a legal ram, take him."

How many people are going to say, "I don't think so" and pass up the shot? Keep i'm mind that the guide has "years" of experience and the client might not have see a sheep in the flesh before.

When your dentist shows you an x-ray and tells you that you have a cavity, do you disagree with him just because you can't see the clues that he is seeing, or do you simply defer to his experience and let him drill?

To take this sheep guide/dentist analogy a step further: can you imagine your dentist pointing to the x-ray and asking, "this darkish spot, do you think that's a cavity? I'll let you make the call....."?

 

[IBen]

I am not a litigious person, but if some POS outfitter did that to me I would spend every penny I had to ruin that whole operation.

A bit harsh maybe? Do you take into consideration the other people employed in the operation that had nothing to do with it? Packers, cooks, pilots, other guides etc?

When a sub legal ram is taken regardless of whatever the state does the issue is worked out man to man without the state being involved. A guide will refund the fine, refund the hunt, do another hunt heavily discounted etc.
Any horror stories you hear are rare and when you hear them you’re likely hearing a biased side. Also hunters shoot the wrong ram in the scope probably the most frequent reason for sub legal rams.

 

[IBen]

If the guide is adamant that the ram is legal, the outfitter should provide a free hunt to the hunter (minus transport and other incidentals). Most won't do that and there is likely a clause somewhere in the contract that holds them harmless.

Know a guy that got 5 bad yardage readings (be thorough) from the guide and shot under the ram; 200 yards off. Long story short: because the hunter took a shot based upon the yardage provided by the guide, there was no discount on the follow up hunt despite the guide screwing up.

Sounds like he missed at 200 yards and tried to blame the guide.

 

[JBrown1]

Sounds like he missed at 200 yards and tried to blame the guide.

He meant that the guides yardage reading was 200 yards off. So I imagine that he was told "350 yards" and it proved to be 550 yards, or whatever.

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

On a smaller scale I recently hunted a much anticipated low odds antelope tag in a super unit. After looking over 20 odd bucks and passing some really big ones we set up a a buck with does. I didn't think the buck was very big but my guide said it was, so I took him. Much to my horror, the buck was tiny. As angry as I was despite my doubts about the bucks size, I took the shot.

It was on me.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Sounds like he missed at 200 yards and tried to blame the guide.

No, it was the guide. Two hundred yards short off of the reading; not a 200 yard shot.