Sublegal ram on guided sheep hunt

[william schmaltz]

The hunter that shot the ram below was reportedly assured by his guide that this ram was 9 years old several times. I do not know this hunter's/guide's story beyond that.

I could understand this hunter's frustration in this case if before the hunt he interviewed numerous guides and stated that he has no idea what he's looking at and would be relying on the guide and the guide subsequently assured the hunter that he was up to the task and the hunter had nothing to worry about. I can also see both sides argued and agree that it's on the guy pulling the trigger to know what he's looking at. But I'd be pretty pissed if I did thorough due diligence when hiring a guide, stated I had no idea what I was looking at and would be heavily relying on the guide for the legality call, and the guide stated he would have my back and ultimately failed.

Of the 11 sublegal rams killed on guided hunts this year in AK, reportedly there was one instance where the rams disappeared and reappeared and the hunter admitted to shooting the wrong ram.

 

[adventure907]

The hunter that shot the ram below was reportedly assured by his guide that this ram was 9 years old several times. I do not know this hunter's/guide's story beyond that.

I could understand this hunter's frustration in this case if before the hunt he interviewed numerous guides and stated that he has no idea what he's looking at and would be relying on the guide and the guide subsequently assured the hunter that he was up to the task and the hunter had nothing to worry about. I can also see both sides argued and agree that it's on the guy pulling the trigger to know what he's looking at. But I'd be pretty pissed if I did thorough due diligence when hiring a guide, stated I had no idea what I was looking at and would be heavily relying on the guide for the legality call, and the guide stated he would have my back and ultimately failed.

Of the 11 sublegal rams killed on guided hunts this year in AK, reportedly there was one instance where the rams disappeared and reappeared and the hunter admitted to shooting the wrong ram.
View attachment 465812

I wish they would name names. From what I am told, it is primarily two outfits that are killing these rams on guided hunts.

 

[JBrown1]

From what I am told, it is primarily two outfits that are killing these rams on guided hunts.

Is that is true? I can hardly believe that is could be.

How could an outfit stay in business if their clients sheep were routinely being confiscated? Wouldn’t word of something like that make the rounds?

 

[cbeard64]

Interesting thread. I’m from Texas. I’ve killed 4 rams. I’m not an expert in sheep aging. But I do study the regs. And I do make sure that any ram I am going to shoot is a “no brainer” when it comes to being legal.

That said, I can certainly see the reasoning behind a client being extremely upset that a ram a guide said to shoot was not legal. It costs big $$$ to hunt sheep guided. Certainly any hunter should be able to expect their guide to know how to age a ram.

I personally am always way more concerned about rams switching positions. If there is a more than one ram in a group I ask at least twice to confirm the bigger ram’s position just before the shot. This year the rams were of similar size so I probably asked more than twice!

 

[drra]

I would expect the guide to step up and take ownership of the mistake. If it was a big concern to AK game and fish they would have more guide requirements and training. Then again, that would increase the already high cost of going on a mandatory guided hunt (at least for nonresidents).

 

[WCB]

Ask Craig Boddington about how to get a sub legal ram plugged and you won't have to worry about it.

 

[JBrown1]

Ask Craig Boddington about how to get a sub legal ram plugged and you won't have to worry about it.

I've seen this reference several times, but I've never heard any details. When/where/with whom did Boddington kill a sublegal?

 

[TreeWalking]

I've seen this reference several times, but I've never heard any details. When/where/with whom did Boddington kill a sublegal?

There was a picture. His wife shot. Craig had a Facebook post at one point but not sure is there anymore where he says the ram was not a giant. There are very specific guidelines to what is a legal ram in the MT Unlimiteds. MT F&G has confiscated sub-legal rams before. You shoot a ram, go to F&G employee to get the transport tag then go to HQ to get the ram plugged. The ram got plugged. MT does not officially take and log pictures as part of the verification of meeting the guideline for a legal ram.

Since the ram was issued a transport tag and plugged, that implies was legal. So, there you go. His wife shot a ram. A picture was released and not from the side where might be able to be more confident sitting at home whether the ram was legal or sub-legal. Some seasoned sheep hunters thought the curl was not where would need to be to be legal. Non-seasoned hunters chimed in as well. Yet, a transport tag was issued and a plug was done. So.....I presume all was by the book rather than any allowance made for a well-known family. Just my conclusion though if saw a picture of the ram from the side I might question that presumption.

 

[Atigun]

The hunter that shot the ram below was reportedly assured by his guide that this ram was 9 years old several times. I do not know this hunter's/guide's story beyond that.

I could understand this hunter's frustration in this case if before the hunt he interviewed numerous guides and stated that he has no idea what he's looking at and would be relying on the guide and the guide subsequently assured the hunter that he was up to the task and the hunter had nothing to worry about. I can also see both sides argued and agree that it's on the guy pulling the trigger to know what he's looking at. But I'd be pretty pissed if I did thorough due diligence when hiring a guide, stated I had no idea what I was looking at and would be heavily relying on the guide for the legality call, and the guide stated he would have my back and ultimately failed.

Of the 11 sublegal rams killed on guided hunts this year in AK, reportedly there was one instance where the rams disappeared and reappeared and the hunter admitted to shooting the wrong ram.
View attachment 465812

This ram looks as though it would appear to be legal utilizing the crown method of 4 in the crown, or am I seeing things inaccurate? Not questioning the legality of this ram, but rather the validity of aging using the crown method.

 

[Sourdough]

Most of the “guides” guiding these hunters in Alaska are assistants, and not the more experienced master or registered guide.

Currently there is no requirement that the guide with the client has any previous experience hunting the animal that they are guiding the client for.

It happens quite often that sheep clients wind up with a non-resident assistant guide with zero experience hunting or judging sheep.

It is actually worse than that. The most bazar being when they gave dozens a Registered Guide License, who had never "HUNTED" ever.

Just because someone holds a Registered Guide License does not mean they have much field experience.

 

[wantj43]

“4 in the crown” may be valid as a general rule - however, there there is so much variation in Dall’s sheep horns that should not be used in deciding whether to harvest an animal.

 

[AK Troutbum]

The hunter that shot the ram below was reportedly assured by his guide that this ram was 9 years old several times. I do not know this hunter's/guide's story beyond that.

I could understand this hunter's frustration in this case if before the hunt he interviewed numerous guides and stated that he has no idea what he's looking at and would be relying on the guide and the guide subsequently assured the hunter that he was up to the task and the hunter had nothing to worry about. I can also see both sides argued and agree that it's on the guy pulling the trigger to know what he's looking at. But I'd be pretty pissed if I did thorough due diligence when hiring a guide, stated I had no idea what I was looking at and would be heavily relying on the guide for the legality call, and the guide stated he would have my back and ultimately failed.

Of the 11 sublegal rams killed on guided hunts this year in AK, reportedly there was one instance where the rams disappeared and reappeared and the hunter admitted to shooting the wrong ram.
View attachment 465812

What's with the black band/tape around his horns, and could that be covering another annuli?

 

[wantj43]

Not likely given the ridge patterns of the adjacent growth segments.

 

[wind gypsy]

Yeah, I don't range for my clients, either. My policy is, point-and-shoot. A client's rifle should be able to hit the mark out to 300 +/- yards without having to dig out a damn rangefinder (lol).

So how do you know if it is 300 yards away and not 360?

 

[cbeard64]

That’s a good question and I can’t imagine not carrying a rangefinder for that reason.

That said, a lot of outfitters have had such poor experiences with hunters shooting past 300 that they either limit or very strongly discourage shots beyond that distance.

I’m not making a value judgment about that and understand that lots of people are perfectly capable of making shots well beyond that but there are also lots of folks who claim they can shoot well at distance who cannot when it comes down to it. There is usually no way to verify a hunter’s actual ability to shoot at long range in the field, so those who can often pay the price for those who claim they can but cannot.

I am neither confident nor proficient beyond 400 yards and am upfront about it. Just about every outfitter and guide I have had breathes a sigh of relief when I tell them this. Most prefer to get closer than 300 for all shots and do not want to walk on pins and needles with hunters who claim proficiency at long range. They may not tell them that but that’s the way many feel about it. The only thing an outfitter/guide has zero control over is the shot itself and the outcome of the hunt rides on it.

 

[wind gypsy]

That’s a good question and I can’t imagine not carrying a rangefinder for that reason.

That said, a lot of outfitters have had such poor experiences with hunters shooting past 300 that they either limit or very strongly discourage shots beyond that distance.

I’m not making a value judgment about that and understand that lots of people are perfectly capable of making shots well beyond that but there are also lots of folks who claim they can shoot well at distance who cannot when it comes down to it. There is usually no way to verify a hunter’s actual ability to shoot at long range in the field, so those who can often pay the price for those who claim they can but cannot.

I am neither confident nor proficient beyond 400 yards and am upfront about it. Just about every outfitter and guide I have had breathes a sigh of relief when I tell them this. Most prefer to get closer than 300 for all shots and do not want to walk on pins and needles with hunters who claim proficiency at long range. They may not tell them that but that’s the way many feel about it. The only thing an outfitter/guide has zero control over is the shot itself and the outcome of the hunt rides on it.

No argument from me and I agree. But that's a lot different than not ranging anything that isn't MPBR as if that's better. My $ is on a hitting closer to my POA at a verified 400 yards every time over a guessed/eyeballed 300 yards.

Maybe some folks have better calibrated eyeballs but the likelihood of being off by 50 yards on an estimated 300 yards is quite high. That's 5-6" of drop error. Most competent shooters aren't going to miss POA by 2 MOA.

 

[mtnbiker208]

I do know a former alaskan guide who is former, for having his client shoot a sub legal bull moose. the moose was not 50 inches or had enough brow tines. I don't know what happened to hunter. I was the guides first client and we did take a dall, but i had more expierence in the mountains of alaska, than the guide did.

The outfitter is no longer around, i doubt the two are related, but i do know the outfitter was having a hard time getting qualified quides.

 

[AKPA18]

I've seen this reference several times, but I've never heard any details. When/where/with whom did Boddington kill a sublegal?

Boddington Instagram October 2021. Everything you ask is posted. One pic was deleted I see tho……the ram….. Attached is the pic that was deleted. (And technically it’s plugged, so not “sublegal”).…….