Starting Gun Dogs vs. The Demands of Family Life

[VomSteinbruch]

The off switch is because people make there dogs neurotic and dont train them.

The “off switch,” which is closely related to stimulus threshold, is largely genetic. No amount of training can fully create it if it is not already present to some degree. A dog must have at least a solid genetic foundation for mental stability.

Some skilled trainers are able to mask a dog’s inherited neurotic tendencies and create what appears to be an “off switch,” at least on the surface. However, it often reveals itself in unexpected situations.

What they are really doing is conditioning the dog to behave in specific ways in specific contexts through reward and correction. The dog learns that certain environments or situations act as mental boundaries, restricting certain behaviors, and it accepts those boundaries. For example, whining in the crate or in a blind is not allowed, so the dog suppresses the behavior, even though the underlying urge remains due to a low stimulus threshold, which is largely genetic.

As the dog matures and the trainer introduces more of these “mental boundaries,” the dog adjusts its behavior accordingly. However, if the dog is not naturally level-headed, it will struggle to regulate itself in situations where those boundaries have not been clearly established. That’s when things can fall apart.

No training truly fixes this: it is more of a management technique developed by experienced trainers.

You can sometimes see this in dogs sitting quietly in a duck blind. On the surface, they appear calm, but it is often clear that they are tense underneath. An unfamiliar stimulus can trigger a sudden release of that internal pressure, and the dog may become uncontrollable, at least temporarily.

I’ve witnessed this firsthand during a test where a driven hunt was being simulated. A group of dogs was lined up along a forest road, and the requirement was that each dog remain lying down and quiet. Barking would result in disqualification.

A handful of hunters and beaters began working perpendicular to our line in the woods, creating noise by striking bushes and trees with poles. There was a dog next to me that got up as soon as the intensity of the noise increased. At first, it began to whine very softly, which alone would have cost it points, but as the beaters approached closer, started shouting, and firing blanks, the dog completely lost control. It broke, ran toward the beaters, and started barking at them.
The dog ultimately failed the test.

The owner later said that she had spent a significant amount of time preparing for this portion of the test and had managed to get the dog to remain quiet under controlled conditions. However, as soon as something unfamiliar occurred, the dog’s “off switch”, which had only been developed on the surface, fell apart.

 

[KurtR]

The “off switch,” which is closely related to stimulus threshold, is largely genetic. No amount of training can fully create it if it is not already present to some degree. A dog must have at least a solid genetic foundation for mental stability.

Some skilled trainers are able to mask a dog’s inherited neurotic tendencies and create what appears to be an “off switch,” at least on the surface. However, it often reveals itself in unexpected situations.

What they are really doing is conditioning the dog to behave in specific ways in specific contexts through reward and correction. The dog learns that certain environments or situations act as mental boundaries, restricting certain behaviors, and it accepts those boundaries. For example, whining in the crate or in a blind is not allowed, so the dog suppresses the behavior, even though the underlying urge remains due to a low stimulus threshold, which is largely genetic.

As the dog matures and the trainer introduces more of these “mental boundaries,” the dog adjusts its behavior accordingly. However, if the dog is not naturally level-headed, it will struggle to regulate itself in situations where those boundaries have not been clearly established. That’s when things can fall apart.

No training truly fixes this: it is more of a management technique developed by experienced trainers.

You can sometimes see this in dogs sitting quietly in a duck blind. On the surface, they appear calm, but it is often clear that they are tense underneath. An unfamiliar stimulus can trigger a sudden release of that internal pressure, and the dog may become uncontrollable, at least temporarily.

I’ve witnessed this firsthand during a test where a driven hunt was being simulated. A group of dogs was lined up along a forest road, and the requirement was that each dog remain lying down and quiet. Barking would result in disqualification.

A handful of hunters and beaters began working perpendicular to our line in the woods, creating noise by striking bushes and trees with poles. There was a dog next to me that got up as soon as the intensity of the noise increased. At first, it began to whine very softly, which alone would have cost it points, but as the beaters approached closer, started shouting, and firing blanks, the dog completely lost control. It broke, ran toward the beaters, and started barking at them.
The dog ultimately failed the test.

The owner later said that she had spent a significant amount of time preparing for this portion of the test and had managed to get the dog to remain quiet under controlled conditions. However, as soon as something unfamiliar occurred, the dog’s “off switch”, which had only been developed on the surface, fell apart.

First that isn’t an off switch that is called being steady. And she didn’t train ithe dog enough is why the dog broke.

Off switch is coming in the house and laying down and doing nothing. Not pacing around and not barking or just plain acting a fool.

people over stimulate the dogs and then don’t enforce obedience at home then try to be hard ass in the field and it confuses the dog.

Dogs that are genetically neurotic are not bred as they don’t succeed at the top levels . Everyone knows what dogs are noisy and who creeps what faults they have and they have to be really good to over look some like national field champion good. Cosmo was a noisy dog but go back and look at pedigrees and you find him a lot because he was a hammer. The right female would take that out of the pups maybe but you put him with another dragon buckle up. But then he could go lay on the couch and do nothing all day.

 

[VomSteinbruch]

don’t enforce obedience

So you need to enforce obedience to get the dog “off switch”?

Which is better, a dog that needs to be made calm down through obedience or a dog that calms down naturally without oversight?

The Inability to naturally turn on off switch is directly related to a dog’s inability to control itself in unpredictable situations. If you need to train a dog for all possible scenarios due to her low stimulus threshold that ain’t no good dawg. It’s character flaw and it only can be concealed by obedience.

 

[KurtR]

So you need to enforce obedience to get the dog “off switch”?

Which is better, a dog that needs to be made calm down through obedience or a dog that calms down naturally without oversight?

The Inability to naturally turn on off switch is directly related to a dog’s inability to control itself in unpredictable situations. If you need to train a dog for all possible scenarios due to her low stimulus threshold that ain’t no good dawg. It’s character flaw and it only can be concealed by obedience.

Both play a factor. You show the dog what is acceptable and they learn how to relax because they know they can.

Have you ever got to see a fc or afc or grand dog run and then see how they are off the line?

This isn’t just my experience this is guys who have had there hands on hundreds and some thousands of dogs through their career. People like Danny farmer and pat burns have talked about it extensively.

I have only run one national event and getting to see over 900 dogs in one spot you get to watch and learn a lot about dog behavior.

 

[el_jefe_pescado]

This thread is a gold mine. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to chime in.

 

[JGood]

I know this thread is more about the family/hunting dynamic, but if you decide to ignore the good advice in this thread about not getting a dog, here’s some more unsolicited advice.

There are a bunch of hot terms breeders use that are red flags for me and I personally would stay away from. They use these terms as marketing to people who don’t know any better. I’m not saying if a breeder uses these terms they necessarily have bad dogs. I’m just saying they usually have bad dogs.

1. Off-switch
2. For the foot hunter
3. Closeworking
4. Gentlemen’s hunting dog
5. Any reference to a the history of the breed and how the breeder wants to get back to that…looking at you Lewellyn breeders…
6. Any breeder who has 6 dogs or less in their program.
7. Anything disparaging about field trials like “we breed for hunters, not trailers” or “I don’t like high strung trial dogs” or “trial dogs are too much for the house”
8. Any references or weight on the dogs being imported as though that is a merrit.
9. Anything that references European style of hunting like low tail or creeping.
10. Anyone who disparages steady dogs
11. Anyone who says they breed well rounded dogs.
12. Versatile dog breeders who honestly believe their dogs are the best at everything. I promise you their dogs are not competing at Ames Plantation and National Retriever trials

 

[VomSteinbruch]

Both play a factor. You show the dog what is acceptable and they learn how to relax because they know they can.

Of course both are factor, but genetics is the foundation. It dictates most of the outcomes and the only thing we can do is either expand on it through training or conceal it through training.

When someone tells me his dog has off switch, my question was it mostly achieved through training or the dog happens to be naturally calm.

One may ask, what is exactly the different between the dog that off switches via training and the one that off switches naturally. On the surface not much, but the big difference is that naturally clam dog stays calm and evenhanded even the presence of game.

@JGood

1. True
2. True
3. True
4. True
5. True but keeping the original purpose of the dog is good. No need to turn a truck into a sportscar. Just a get a sportscar. Hence the tragic fate of the GSP.
6. No. Many accomplished cover dog trailers and breeders have usually less than 6 dogs. It will be an underestimation to say those guys have bad dogs have no idea what they are doing.
7. True
8. True
9. No. Style is subjective. There are people who think the Lab's working in the field is a better sight than a Pointer devouring the space. Those people are totally sincere with their feelings and not laying.
A good sturdy 9-10 o'clock tail is better than an ugly 12 o'clock sickle tail.
Creeping is great if a dog has a self-control and keeps the fleeing bird under the nose even by the time you get to him. The most of dog don't have self-control in the presence of game and flush the bird. See my post above.
10. Are there people like that?
11. wut??
12. No. Some versatile dog people do get delusional but generally speaking the V dogs are awesome, their performance is often above average in all categories, and they have their own distinct place in upland world.

 

[KurtR]

Of course both are factor, but genetics is the foundation. It dictates most of the outcomes and only thing we can do is either expand on it through training or conceal it through training.

When someone tell me his dog has off switch, my question is what is mostly achieved through training and the dog happens to be naturally calm.

One may ask, what is exactly the different between the dog that off switches via training and the one that off switches naturally. On the surface not much, but the big difference is that naturally clam dog stays calm and evenhanded even the presence of game.

@JGood

1. True
2. True
3. True
4. True
5. True but keeping the original purpose of the dog is good. No need to turn a truck into a sportscar. Just a get a sportscar. Hence the tragic fate of the GSP.
6. No. Many accomplished cover dog trailers and breeders have usually less than 6 dogs. It will be an underestimation to say those guys have bad dogs have no idea what they are doing.
7. True
8. True
9. No. Style is subjective. There are people who think the Lab's working in the field is a better sight than a Pointer devouring the space. Those people are totally sincere with their feelings and not laying.
A good sturdy 9-10 o'clock tail is better than an ugly 12 o'clock sickle tail.
Creeping is great if a dog has a self-control and keeps the fleeing bird under the nose even by the time you get to him. The most of dog don't have self-control in the presence of game and flush the bird. See my post above.
10. Are there people like that?
11. wut??
12. No. Some versatile dog people do get delusional but generally speaking the V dogs are awesome, their performance is often above average in all categories, and they have their own distinct place in upland world.

Creeping gets you sent home at the grand so its never good in my world plus dogs that creep dont mark as good as dogs who are steady.

I dont know any pros who have less than 6 dogs and most the top ams all have that many or more. You cant make a living on six dogs unless you get to charge some crazy amount.

Versatile dogs do lots of things good but they dont point like a pointer or retriever like a retriever

 

[el_jefe_pescado]

Versatile dogs do lots of things good but they dont point like a pointer or retriever like a retriever

Yeah that's fair

 

[loganwayne]

My first dog i was in college and trained myself in my back yard in about a 2 acre open lot behind the house.

Second dog I trained was working full time, married and living at the same place.

Third dog we had recently moved to bigger house and I was remodeling, wife was pregnant and I was working full time. I sent her to a trainer to start her when she was 8 month old. Spent 8 weeks with him. Got her back and spent the next two weeks hunting her out of town.

All my dogs id say are above average bird dogs but not the top tier (ill blame that on being in the south and wild birds are limited).


Puppy stage is going to be the hardest, getting a well breed dog they will typically figure it out on their own with a little nudge from you.

But be realistic I hunt 30 days plus or minus a few a year plus run in 2-3 field trials a year. Im realistic that my dogs are never going to be as polished as a dog that hunts 60 + days a year.

We have 4 dogs in the house with a boy that is now almost a year old. He is rough on them, he is learning but gets excited and still pulls on their hair and ears. They dont snap or bark at him. NOT ALL DOGS WILL DO THAT AND ALOT OF BREEDS WONT DEAL WITH IT.

I cant stress enough finding the correct breed for YOU, and then finding a breeder that has the traits you want to key in on. If your out west in open ground I wouldn't get a dog from the north east thats been breed to grouse hunt. Not that they wont be good dogs they may just not be the best fit for what your doing.

 

[WoolyBugger]

I'll add my experience in this as someone who isn't remotely a dog expert or into them at the level as some people in this thread.

We got a chessie a couple years before we had kids to replace another chessie that passed away. Plenty of time to exercise him and hunt him all fall. My wife was hunting him at 8 months pregnant, thought nothing would change blah blah. The second that kid comes everything changed. We exercised him as much as we could but it was tough to make time for it with my wife and I both having demanding jobs and now the kiddo. He got to be a bit much in the house at times but it wasn't terrible. Once that kiddo got older, we had a little more time for him but we still only hunted him a couple weekends a year. Second kid came along now hes totally on the back burner, last year was the first year in quite some time we didn't pheasant or duck hunt. The dog is bored all the time and possessive over food and his crate. I love dogs but it's weird the feeling you get towards them once you have kids and the dog is still demanding attention, I don't know how to describe it. I just don't ever see getting back to how we were bird hunting before kids until they are older. We kind of have to pick and chose a few hunts a year and be happy with what we get, and bird hunting hasn't been what we picked. After this one is gone we wont be getting

I wouldn't get one. I would get a friend with a one.

 

[Speaks]

Assuming you have capacity to have a well mannered house dog turning a well bred pup into a totally serviceable bird dog is not that hard. I spend much more time around upland hunting crowd that big game hunting crowd and lots of what guys do for training is for their own entertainment as much as for setting up a bird dog. Now if you want a fully broke finished dog I guess thats different but for a good hunting dog just expose them to wild birds.

Once they are 6 months or so get them out in hunting like conditions and work on handling, not that hard to teach whoa and here, thats about all you need for commands though I like using a whistle to have them turn as well if you want, but again its easy. After that the more you expose to birds the better they will do, but it does not take a ton. One or 2 times a week in birdy areas for awhile and they will start putting it together.

 

[VomSteinbruch]

Creeping gets you sent home at the grand so its never good in my world plus dogs that creep dont mark as good as dogs who are steady.

Yes, in the world of field trials, that is often the case.

However, and this is a different conversation, these dogs don’t always point the actual bird. Quite often, they are pointing the scent the bird left behind as it moved away. By the time the handler reaches the dog, the bird may already be gone or may not have been there for quite some time.

This is one of the reasons why many cover dog trialers don’t always favor dogs with extremely long‑range noses. Those dogs may point from a great distance, and when the handler arrives, they may spend time trying to flush the bird only to realize it is no longer there. At that point, they have to pick up the dog and move on.

Many CD handlers instead prefer a dog that points closer to the actual vicinity of the bird, but does so with absolute steadiness and style. I wouldn’t dare to call it “fake” because it isn’t, but for a practical hunter, it can raise some questions. That type of nose work generally wouldn’t score above average across all three versatile dog evaluation venues.

Personally, I value a dog that can relocate independently, whether you call it creeping or controlled relocation, and maintain contact with the bird without losing composure. That is the kind of dog I want to hunt behind, even though I still expect a high level of steadiness in most situations.

The combination of drive and self‑control is a major advantage in my view. I also understand that field trial handlers are not necessarily selecting for that, since they are not concerned with what happens after the dog finds the bird.

That said, I respectfully disagree with the broader comparison. I fully acknowledge that specialized breeds have an edge in the specific tasks they are bred for, Pointers in covering large amounts of ground quickly, and Labradors in marking and memorizing multiple downed birds.

However, versatile dogs are still fundamentally pointing dogs, just with additional capabilities, unlike highly specialized pointing breeds such as Pointers or Setters.

Their core pointing instinct is largely comparable, especially in breeds like the GSP, PP, and GWP. The main distinction lies in style: the gait and overall movement of the Pointer has been refined to a higher level of elegance. At the same time, many versatile dogs are fully capable of covering as much ground as cover dog trial dogs.

As for retrievers, their primary advantage lies in exceptional marking ability and memory, along with slightly better cold tolerance. That said, the current trend toward “upland‑type” Labradors is, in some cases, reducing the physical substance that contributes to cold resistance.

In terms of retrieving instinct, the difference is not as significant, and when it comes to nose use and tracking ability, versatile dogs often have a clear advantage.

 

[JGood]

6. No. Many accomplished cover dog trailers and breeders have usually less than 6 dogs. It will be an underestimation to say those guys have bad dogs have no idea what they are doing.
7. True
8. True
9. No. Style is subjective. There are people who think the Lab's working in the field is a better sight than a Pointer devouring the space. Those people are totally sincere with their feelings and not laying.
A good sturdy 9-10 o'clock tail is better than an ugly 12 o'clock sickle tail.
Creeping is great if a dog has a self-control and keeps the fleeing bird under the nose even by the time you get to him. The most of dog don't have self-control in the presence of game and flush the bird. See my post above.
10. Are there people like that?
11. wut??
12. No. Some versatile dog people do get delusional but generally speaking the V dogs are awesome, their performance is often above average in all categories, and they have their own distinct place in upland world.

As i said before, these are all just red flags. there are certainly exceptions to every one of these. These terms are just used by the grifters a lot. thats not to say good breeders dont sometimes also use marketing terms.

6. Im sure there are are many that have had great success in trials, but if you have less than 6 dogs its almost impossible to run a real breeding operation. You simply dont have enough output or genetic diversification to reliably hold dogs through age and develop lines. At most you can have 3 litters per year (assuming you dont go outside for semen). You just dont have enough to filter out duds and develop keepers. You can successfully trial, you can successfully stud your dog out, but you cant be a successful breeder with less than 6. Thats called backyard breeding. Its fine. a lot of great dogs come out of backyard programs. its just not where i would look to get the best odds.

9. Of course style is subjective. Im saying if an American breeder is breeding dogs to have a european style of hunting, l would stay away. European style hunting is very different than our ruff hunting and its not helpful. The last part is fighting words! i think that low tail setters and pointers are lame.

10. All the time. I hear it every week.

11. Folks who claims to breed for well roundedness typically full of shit. Those that breed for everything are those not breeding for anything. I dont want my ferrari to be well rounded. Well rounded is a result of great dogs. We breed the best dogs, not the well rounded ones.

12. Yeah im just saying stay away from the delusional ones.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Two of you guys are really talking past each other on pointing dogs and labs. Similar words, different meanings.

 

[JGood]

@VomSteinbruch when you say cover dogs, what do you mean? i feel like youve used it a couple different times for different aplications and i just want to make sure im tracking. are you talking about Grouse American Field Trials or something different?

I appreciate your dissagreement with my statement about versitile dogs. The problem is not the best versitile dogs. Its that finding a good one is very difficult (with the exception of GSP) for the average first time dog buyer with a family. The number of exceptional breeders is not high and the standards are not set very high.