sig 365 for CC

[TML75]

Curious if you’re implying it’s price? if so, I’d wager a G19 and a P320 on a gov contract are pretty equal from a price standpoint. But don’t have that data. Maybe someone can chime in with that. But to say that reliability isn’t a factor in what contracts departments award, I think is a big stretch, more so if costs are relatively equal.

My comment was pretty vague; I should have been more specific.

I have been involved in four large weapon purchases in a department. In three of them, supervisors or administrators decided which brand and model would be purchased, despite what the end users (who also did the testing) had recommended. In the fourth, the brand that was purchased was determined by which distributor we had to use.

I can’t say that this happens in other departments; just my experience.

 

[sacklunch]

The M17 or M19 could probably lay claim to the highest mean rounds between stoppages of current pistols, none of the other models generally could.




If “shootable” means highest performance of speed and accuracy, no Glocks are not the most shootable pistols. Of all the striker fired pistols, the Sig P320 series has that one. The trigger in the P320 is lighter, shorter, doesn’t stack and is more consistent- it’s easier to shoot. Which is also the same reason that people are having ND’s and blaming it on the gun- it’s easier to shoot. I’m every department and agency I am aware of that switched from Glocks to Sigs, scores went up more than they should have due to just the new gun phenomenon.




The problem is that an appeal to authority, yet you have no knowledge of what was involved in the testing of pistols by those organizations, nor why those orgs chose what they did. Sig is dominating large purchase contracts for the last few years, and precisely because the guns are modular and easier to shoot.




So you have never owned or used one of the things you are railing against, and only have a sample of one with the other thing, yet are convinced you are correct?

I do not love Sig, or any manufacturer, however there is way too much “I hate sig” blinding even some generally very knowledgeable people from evaluating the system on its own merit. My experience is that people that rail against the Sig P320 are those with the least experience with them. I disliked them too… and then I personally shot 40,000 rounds through two in less than a year.

Having seen hundreds of Sig P320 series pistols used extensively in some of the harshest environments and firing schedules, the absolute massive amount of rounds fired through them by everyone from nearly brand new shooters to world class, the P320 has a few warts- but general reliability and safety aren’t among them. Short, light triggers without a manual safety is not a recipe for good things, but a P320 with thumb safety and a different grip module is an extremely shootable, reliable, and worthy field/carry pistol.

The Sig P365 is an even better pistol for generally CCW and is not an issue for carry at all.





Clearly “fan boy” is my behavior; I never have actual experience about a subject before I comment.

Lots of conjecture and opinions in there, masquerading as fact. Sadly, most here won’t know the difference.

Maybe if enough of your fans on here clamor for it, you can do an Sig vs Glock torure test, you can even call it an M19 instead of a G19 even though 98% of the folks on here will never be issued an M19…folks here would eat that up. You remind me a lot of frank from the hide, I’ll leave it at that. Can’t wait for the test…

 

[Formidilosus]

Lots of conjecture and opinions in there, masquerading as fact. Sadly, most here won’t know the difference.

Ok. Point out the conjecture and opinion that I wrote.

Again, you don’t shoot the things you are complaining about.

Maybe if enough of your fans on here clamor for it, you can do an Sig vs Glock torure test, you can even call it an M19 instead of a G19 even though 98% of the folks on here will never be issued an M19…folks here would eat that up. You remind me a lot of frank from the hide, I’ll leave it at that. Can’t wait for the test…

Why won’t you answer what an acceptable mean round between stoppages limit is for you, or what “shootable” means to you instead of going to an ad hominem attack?

 

[fwafwow]

Ok. Point out the conjecture and opinion that I wrote.

Again, you don’t shoot the things you are complaining about.




Why won’t you answer what an acceptable mean round between stoppages limit is for you, or what “shootable” means to you instead of going to an ad hominem attack?

Questions aren’t acknowledged or answered, as this isn’t a discussion or an effort either to educate or learn. I think it was a flippant post and (as is all too common) there is no willingness to question whether a long held belief might be wrong.

 

[Formidilosus]

Questions aren’t acknowledged or answered, as this isn’t a discussion or an effort either to educate or learn. I think it was a flippant post and (as is all too common) there is no willingness to question whether a long held belief might be wrong.

I know. These discussions are almost never for the people writing, but for those just reading. In this case I’ve gotten quite a few questions about the Sig deal after people drive by post this stuff and it needs to be addressed at some point.

 

[sacklunch]

Ok. Point out the conjecture and opinion that I wrote.

Again, you don’t shoot the things you are complaining about.




Why won’t you answer what an acceptable mean round between stoppages limit is for you, or what “shootable” means to you instead of going to an ad hominem attack?

You opinion/conjecture, one of many was that the P365 is a far better carry weapon than the P320. There is a lot of ‘it depends’ on that statement. But you pass it off as fact. Typical from what I’ve seen.

I don’t shoot the things I’m complaining about? Owning a p365 doesn’t count?

What’s acceptable to me? I’ve already stated, I’ve got a one of a few Gen 3’s with zero FTF/F in over 10k rounds…I owned a p365 the week it hit the shelves and I’ve had 5 failures in that time with far far fewer rounds.

I’m sure I’m in the minority though…Because you say so. Torture test striker fired pistols then, let’s see how reliable the sig p series is compared to the G17/19.

You’ve already admitted that the G17/19 platform is probably the most proven reliable striker fire in existence…not sure why you insist on carrying this on. Nothing I’ve stated is factually inaccurate, and I freely admit when something is opinion vs fact supported by the data.

 

[fwafwow]

 

[ARK_Ginger]

What’s acceptable to me? I’ve already stated, I’ve got a one of a few Gen 3’s with zero FTF/F in over 10k rounds…I owned a p365 the week it hit the shelves and I’ve had 5 failures in that time with far far fewer rounds.

I’m sure I’m in the minority though…

You owned a 365 when they had known issues. You are in the minority because they’ve improved the gun.

 

[TxxAgg]

@Formidilosus how does the M&P Shield/plus stack up with Glocks and Sigs?

 

[fwafwow]

View attachment 558824

Ok. Now I’m stooping to the level (or below) and method of argument with which I’m taking issue. Apologies

 

[Jack_Attack]

I've tried and shot both. P365 with a grip sleeve and a Holosun HS507KX2 is what I personally carry. Very comfortable in and position.

 

[OMF]

For me, I'd rule out anything Glock. That's only because I've frustrated many people that tried to teach(paid)/help(willing range person) me at various ranges where you can rent/try different models. I tend to shoot them high and/or all over the place. I'm not the best shot by any means but I tend to not have the same problem with other brands. So far that includes Sig, Springfield, Ruger, and S&W that I've rented and tried.

 

[Formidilosus]

You opinion/conjecture, one of many was that the P365 is a far better carry weapon than the P320. There is a lot of ‘it depends’ on that statement. But you pass it off as fact. Typical from what I’ve seen.

Typical from what or who?

To qualify that statement-

The P365 has a better mechanical trigger system than the P320 which totally eliminates the drop firing problem- regardless of whether it’s a current issue, it’s also less complicated making repairs and armorers work easier; it’s smaller trigger group allows a much wider size and shape variety in grip modules, it’s thinner profile is easier to conceal for all people than a P320, and if the grip is too small for those with abnormally large hands there are much larger grips available.
In general they have as good or better mechanical precision than P320’s though P320’s are quite good when new; and the P365 does not suffer from the relatively common lockup issue that causes degradation in precision (group size) after 5,000-8,000 rounds that the P320’s tend to exibit.


I’m not sure what basis someone could make that the P320 is “better” than a P365 for carry? Maybe ubiquity and availability of very light triggers?

What’s acceptable to me? I’ve already stated, I’ve got a one of a few Gen 3’s with zero FTF/F in over 10k rounds…freedom remans even. I owned a p365 the week it hit the shelves and I’ve had 5 failure in that time with far far fewer rounds.

Saying you haven’t had a malfunction in 10k rounds isn’t saying what is acceptable to you. But, if we go by your statement above, then 10,000 MRBS is the acceptable limit for you?

So what are you going to do if the pistol malfunctions twice in the next 5,000 rounds? That’ll drop it below the 10k MRBS standard. Will you then say 5,000 MRBS is ok?

I’m sure I’m in the minority though…Because you say so. Torture test striker fired pistols then, let’s see how reliable the sig p series is compared to the G17/19.

You used large agency/govern contracts as a proof that Glock is better. I have pointed out that not only is that a fallacy (appeal to authority) but, it also doesn’t work as Sig has absolutely dominated the large agency and government contracts for new pistols not only in the US the last 3-5 years, but across the western world.

You’ve already admitted that the G17/19 platform is probably the most proven reliable striker fire in existence…not sure why you insist on carrying this on. Nothing I’ve stated is factually inaccurate, and I freely admit when something is opinion can fact supported by the data. You should try it.

Because your position has been based on fallacies and incorrect assumptions. As an example you stated-

Or better yet, buy a G19 and have a pistol that doesn’t go bang when it hits the ground.

Never heard of glocks firing without the trigger being pressed, can’t say the same the sig brand. even with the 365 not having the recall the 320 did, it’s got plenty of known issues. you willing to trust that a broken firing pin (known issue) isn’t going to put one in your leg?

And several more incorrect statements- that’s what I was addressing. The Sig P320 currently on the market is no more prone to firing when dropped than a Glock. Never mind that even the early ones had to be setup a specific way for them fire when “dropped”, and it’s a way that no manufacturer at that time tested for. And as I said before-the 90’s were rife with stories of Glocks “just going off” including the lawsuits. But people don’t remember or weren’t alive then. It’s was BS then, and it’s BS now. It’s people trying not to get fired for having a negligent discharge in nearly all cases, and for blaming the gun when an incorrect model holster was used in a couple others.


Notice I didn’t say anything to others that said they weren’t comfortable with it, etc. I quoted you as you were making definitive statements about safety and reliability that are not reality.