Sanity check first rifle config (elk, lightweight)

[breaks_mud_man]

Just out of curiosity, did you find all 3?

Yes all 3 elk were recovered. One took some searching though because it was in a bunch of junipers and there was no blood trail

 

[breaks_mud_man]

My daughter shot two elk last year with a borrowed 6.5 PRC and 147 gr ELD-M factory ammo. I can’t say that there was much of a blood trail for either. They both did drop in their tracks though.

I've actually herd about people having better results with the ELD-m than the ELD-x. That eldx bullet often blows apart and you dont get an exit wound. Good for killing but bad for blood trails

 

[Taudisio]

Yes all 3 elk were recovered. One took some searching though because it was in a bunch of junipers and there was no blood trail

Just making an observation, you and me together have 6 elk down. My 3 did not take a step, 1 required a follow up shot, 2 got the knife, your 3 ran 100+- yards. Not bad results by any means, but I have my reasons why I am stepping up to a 30 Nosler.

 

[sdirks3]

Just making an observation, you and me together have 6 elk down. My 3 did not take a step, 1 required a follow up shot, 2 got the knife, your 3 ran 100+- yards. Not bad results by any means, but I have my reasons why I am stepping up to a 30 Nosler.

Creed to a 30 nosler?! That's quite the step

 

[Taudisio]

Creed to a 30 nosler?! That's quite the step

The 6.5prc to the 30 Nosler. I’ve had dozens of calibers over the years including a 300wsm and 300prc. Just making an elk specific rifle.

 

[KenLee]

@wind gypsy

Interesting note on the stocks, cuz the savage has that adjustable stock as well (not in the grip angle category, but for cheek and lop). I'd definitely want to handle either before swiping the credit card.

Haha, yeah what are forums for if not picking fly poop out of pepper

On the PRC recoil question - what if I load it light and pick up a good brake until the suppressor gets here? Cheaper than buying a second rifle and should tame the recoil, right? Maybe not down to CM levels but down to nice and shootable?

Light loaded 120 gr NBT will still kill anything within 300 yards that needs killin. Mean little pills. I think you said 250 yards til you got proficient.

 

[KenLee]

Well, savage sample size of 1 but I couldn't get one to shoot better than 3". Took a trip to savage for a rebarrel with the same result. Sold it. Wasted lots of $ in ammo trying to get it to shoot. Action sucks, not a fan of the bladed accutrigger either, mediocre stock, and terrible accuracy. It was a major lose, won't own one again.

That's wild that it wouldn't shoot after going back to the factory. I've probably owned or set up for others a hundred Savage model 110, 10, 11, 12 and 16 over the last 25 years.
Never touched one that wouldn't shoot 1.5 moa. Most shot better. High majority of my folks never shoot past 400 yards (most not past 250) so we aren't really needing half moa rifles.
Did they tell you what ammo they tested the new barrel with, or did they not test it?
I do hate the 90 degree bolt rotation.

 

[KenLee]

Here's a curveball for the folks thinking about recoil - there's a lefty savage timberline 280 AI I could pick up used off the classifieds for $750. Adds 2 lbs to the rifle weight and brings my total to 10 lbs, but that 1) Gives me a cool cartridge in the stable and 2) brings the recoil down to ~15 ft lbs even though I've got considerably more power just cuz of the added weight. Also saves me $700-$1k compared to the ultralights for a first rifle.

Not a big fan of signing up to carry that much extra, but might be a good option for rifle #1? Thoughts?

Just depends on how much carrying you are actually doing and how fit you are. For 40 years of rifle hunting, I wouldn't have cared. The last 5 years I cared. I now use 6.25-8 pound rigs. 22-250 up to 300wsm and 45-70. All unbraked.
My halfway repaired shoulders don't mind the recoil as much as the rest of me minds the extra 2-4 pounds and extra noise.

 

[KenLee]

Aside from taming recoil, is there a general stability advantage to having a heavier gun? Or are we saying creedmore to tame the recoil and then go as light as I want?

If you are putting a 25-30 ounce scope on it, yes. If putting a 12 ounce scope on it, no.

 

[KenLee]

Alrighty, some interesting numbers for you. Assuming no suppression (since the ATF will have that in jail for who knows how long), here are some recoil numbers for my front running options (all run using nosler load data for consistency):

6.5 CM, 8 lb rifle, 120 grain: 11 ft lbs
6.5 CM, 8 lb rifle, 150 grain: 13.7 ft lbs
280 AI, 10.5 lb rifle, 120 grain: 14.8 ft lbs
280 AI, 10.5 lb rifle, 150 grain: 15.9 ft lbs
280 AI, 10.5 lb rifle, 185 grain: 17.6 ft lbs
6.5 PRC, 8 lb rifle, 120 grain: 20 ft lbs
6.5 PRC, 8 lb rifle, 150 grain: 21.8 ft lbs

Unsurprisingly the CM comes out ahead even in the featherweight rifle. What did surprise me is that the 280 AI is dang close in terms of recoil if I up the rifle weight (using the same attachments on the savage timberline available used for cheap). I've been reading up on rifle weight and recoil and it seems that even leaving recoil aside some folks advocate a ~10 lb rifle just for added stability (good ol' inertia), but what are all of your thoughts seeing the numbers laid out there? Light rifle in a light cartridge? Cool cartridge in a heavier rifle? Or the rokslide classic tikka and have a gunsmith thread it when the silencer comes through?

Whether the stock "fits" you properly and whether the stock has a good recoil pad are as important in the actual recoil you feel as any number you can research.

 

[tkhuntsman]

TLDR at the bottom.

-----

I am a long time archery hunter looking to pick up a first rifle for learning to shoot, picking up reloading, and hunting. I'll be doing everything from white tail up north to mule deer and elk out here in Colorado. Given that I'm new to rifle and enjoy stalking in close to game I'm confident I won't be shooting anything out past 500 yds for a while. For this first year I'll likely set an outer limit of 250-ish (depending on how the shooting goes).

All that being said, I landed on 6.5 PRC as the cartridge because it's 1) easy shooting while still being adequate for short to mid range elk, 2) readily available ammo and reloading stuff, and 3) seems light recoiling enough for me to carry around a (sub) 8 pound rifle even as a new shooter. Also hoping lower cost ammo and easier shooting will mean I'll put more rounds down range before the season comes around.

On the rifle side of things I'm a lefty, which limits my options. I've narrowed it to the Savage 110 UL or the CA Mesa FFT. Both are light, come threaded for a suppressor, and come in lefty. The CA in my mind is a clear win - $200 gets me 4 inches shorter barrel, 8 oz less weight, and an extra round in the mag.

For the scope I'm waffling between 3 options - the Trijicon Tenmile HX 3-18x50, SWFA SS HD 5-20x50, or the SWFA SS UL 2.5-10x32. Of these three, the SS HD is heaviest but also saves some cash vs the Tenmile and is the only FFP option. The UL is a full pound lighter than the Tenmile (20 oz lighter than the SS HD), and maybe the 10x is sufficient below 500 yds? Also not sure how big of a difference the 32 vs 50 mm objective makes. Of course the Tenmile seems to be a rockstar (although around here the SWFA stuff seems pretty dang popular). Could really use some advice here.

On the scope mounting front, I'm thinking the Hawkins LR 25 MOA direct mount rings (with the integrated bubble). But people seem to like the pic rail with rings setup (although I don't see myself swapping scopes very much if ever), so if I went that route I was going to pick up the Talley rail with the bubble integrated and the Talley sporting pic rings. The rail + rings approach is only 1.5 oz heavier, so the real question is which will be more robust in the field?

-----

TLDR: About to pull the trigger on the configuration below for "becoming a rifleman", "learning to reload", and "backpack elk hunting" rifle - looking for a sanity check.

Rifle: Christensen Arms Mesa FFT (6.5 PRC, 20", 5.5 lbs)
Suppressor: Diligent Defense Enticer L-Ti (8.25", 10.5 oz)
Scope: Trijicon Tenmile HX 3-18x50 (25.7 oz, SFP)
Rings: Hawkins LR 25 MOA w/level (4 oz)

All in all 8 pounds before bullets, 6.5 PRC for easy shooting/reloading/practice, intended for hunting up to elk at sub 500 yd distances (mostly sub 300).

Questions:
- Is the 6.5 PRC a good choice here?
- Thoughts on the Tenmile vs the SWFA SS HD 5-20x50? or the dark horse SWFA SS UL 2.5-10x32 (saves a full pound! sufficient for closer ranges)?
- Any general advice?

Just out of curiosity why the 6.5 PRC when there's the 308 out there that does everything you want, it comes in lighter more compact rifles, and it's easier and cheaper to feed. Not saying 6.5 is bad but it's still kind of a glamour round. In a pinch you can buy a box of 308 ammo in every sporting goods and hardware store in the country and most of the Canadian and Mexican ones. 308 would give you options on heavier more adequate bullets for elk or even moose if you so desired and you can load it with a long high bc bullet for long range or even varmints. Not to mention as a lefty you will find far more rifle options to fit your needs chambered in that caliber. Again taking nothing away from 6.5 PRC I own 1 but for pure all around rifle with the most availability and ease of use I've gotta give it to the 308. especially if it's my only rifle.

 

[Tahoe1305]

I could step back to the Enticer S-TI, gain an extra inch and a half...very interesting. On the one had it's "only 2 inches", on the other those inches add up when you're weaving through brush and trees.

Great news on the mag! Honestly in my mind I should only need one, but I also carry around 5 arrows on the bow so...

That pic definitely makes me feel better about the PRC for elk!

I would recommend this for a hunting setup. Based on the pew science specs this should be a very good can still hunting or range.

I’d take the 1.5oz and the length on a hunting gun.

 

[Taudisio]

Just out of curiosity why the 6.5 PRC when there's the 308 out there that does everything you want, it comes in lighter more compact rifles, and it's easier and cheaper to feed. Not saying 6.5 is bad but it's still kind of a glamour round. In a pinch you can buy a box of 308 ammo in every sporting goods and hardware store in the country and most of the Canadian and Mexican ones. 308 would give you options on heavier more adequate bullets for elk or even moose if you so desired and you can load it with a long high bc bullet for long range or even varmints. Not to mention as a lefty you will find far more rifle options to fit your needs chambered in that caliber. Again taking nothing away from 6.5 PRC I own 1 but for pure all around rifle with the most availability and ease of use I've gotta give it to the 308. especially if it's my only rifle.

IIRC, I believe he goes off the 1500 ft lb rule. Right or wrong if it makes him comfortable then do it. I don’t remember the numbers for the 308 off the top of my head, but I think it’s 100-200 yards shorter than the prc. I don’t disagree with what you said though.

 

[tkhuntsman]

IIRC, I believe he goes off the 1500 ft lb rule. Right or wrong if it makes him comfortable then do it. I don’t remember the numbers for the 308 off the top of my head, but I think it’s 100-200 yards shorter than the prc. I don’t disagree with what you said though.

Inside his effective range it's close and negligible is all I was getting at.

 

[Taudisio]

Inside his effective range it's close and negligible is all I was getting at.

I haven’t crunched the numbers, but at 10,000+ft elevation that he mentioned, the 308 should carry him pretty far. I think he was also concerned about recoil too though. And the 308 maybe pushing his recoil limits.

 

[tkhuntsman]

I haven’t crunched the numbers, but at 10,000+ft elevation that he mentioned, the 308 should carry him pretty far. I think he was also concerned about recoil too though. And the 308 maybe pushing his recoil limits.

It's usually less than the 6.5 PRC I've shot them both side by side at the range and the 6.5 with 140 grn loads and the 308 with 150 grn loads are about the same on feel. The last chart I saw which was put up in an article by Ron Spomer had them at about 2 lbs lighter on felt recoil for the 308. Now jump up to a 180 grn bullet and yes there is more felt recoils due to the pressure.

 

[tkhuntsman]

It's usually less than the 6.5 PRC I've shot them both side by side at the range and the 6.5 with 140 grn loads and the 308 with 150 grn loads are about the same on feel. The last chart I saw which was put up in an article by Ron Spomer had them at about 2 lbs lighter on felt recoil for the 308. Now jump up to a 180 grn bullet and yes there is more felt recoils due to the pressure.

I may have had that backwards with the 308 being the heavier by a couple pounds thinking back on it. Either way it is minimal.

 

[Taudisio]

I may have had that backwards with the 308 being the heavier by a couple pounds thinking back on it. Either way it is minimal.

I think it’s dependent on the load like you first said. I looked at the backfire.tv recoil table where he uses averages of everything and for some reason he said the average of 308 ammo is 208gr causing it to have a higher average recoil. I strongly disagree with 208gr being the average of 308 loadings.

 

[tkhuntsman]

I think it’s dependent on the load like you first said. I looked at the backfire.tv recoil table where he uses averages of everything and for some reason he said the average of 308 ammo is 208gr causing it to have a higher average recoil. I strongly disagree with 208gr being the average of 308 loadings.

Yeah me too I hunt with mine a lot and the average is more like 150 to 165 grn loads being the average and most common and for me and my rifle I get the best performance from a 150 grn load. Which inside 400 yards will do optimum damage to elk, deer, or bear. If I was going to use it for moose I'd bump up to a 180 grn partitions and keep my shots inside 300 which is pretty easy to do. That said I also have several other rifles I'd rather carry personally for moose but if it were my only choice that's what I'd do.

 

[sdirks3]

Just out of curiosity why the 6.5 PRC when there's the 308 out there that does everything you want, it comes in lighter more compact rifles, and it's easier and cheaper to feed. Not saying 6.5 is bad but it's still kind of a glamour round. In a pinch you can buy a box of 308 ammo in every sporting goods and hardware store in the country and most of the Canadian and Mexican ones. 308 would give you options on heavier more adequate bullets for elk or even moose if you so desired and you can load it with a long high bc bullet for long range or even varmints. Not to mention as a lefty you will find far more rifle options to fit your needs chambered in that caliber. Again taking nothing away from 6.5 PRC I own 1 but for pure all around rifle with the most availability and ease of use I've gotta give it to the 308. especially if it's my only rifle.

Honestly the 308 numbers just haven't been impressive, and lately the most common ammo on the shelves has been 6.5 CM or 6.5 PRC (at least around me). I have been giving the good ol' 270 another look lately, and man does that thing hold up! The issue I have with both the 308 and the 270 is that no one puts anything faster than a 1:10 twist on them, and knowing myself that's gonna be really annoying when I want to reload some awesome new bullet but my barrel can't stabilize it