Returned Elk Tags

[Hnthrdr]

I didn't burn a pile last year but burned 3 on a 3rd season deer tag in a unit that is a producer and I have friends who have shot 200" deer. Was a tough year after winter kill but I managed a respectable buck and my personal best. 3rd season was also awful weather last year. I had 180" aspirations and this was the best buck we saw by far and on of few. It was worth it for me, but I also learned there is a lot more to setting expectations than what others have pulled out of a unit in the past. I've heard Steve Rinella say something to the effect of "don't go chasing ghosts..." Deer are creatures of habit and inherit those habits, but units change through time for the good and bad.

Eh Steve also said to shoot forkies since you know they are 2 years old… I think you should shoot what tips your trigger, but that’s different for everyone. I thought we were going to get a picture with the last post haha, man lots of units had the ability to produce 200+ in Co, yet with the Md management I feel like it’s less likely these days, still possible, but less likely

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I see what you mean, but if you start going down that road then you have to start pooling residents and non residents in the 2nd draw which currently there are no quotas for that or reissue tags. My 5 points is worth a hell of a lot more than a non residents 5 points for quality of hunt whether season or unit. I drew a deer tag last year with 3 points that take non resident 10 points. I bank points for deer and elk and get one or both tags off the leftover list for tags that are a 0-2 pt draw for a resident generally. You could also get those same tags every year and have the equal opportunity as me without burning your points. Would you prefer to start splitting resident/nonresident and requiring a point burn on leftover draw?

My point is I like the system now because I live here to hunt and I have the opportunity to hunt more than I can. I think that is the way it should be.

I don't see why you would have to enforce R/NR allocations in the secondary draw and leftover sale if tags acquired via those means began consuming points. But if that were part of the deal, I would still support it even though it would likely mean fewer tags available to me (as a NR) in the secondary draw and leftover sale.

I generally favor a preference point system, and Colorado's lenient return policy undermines the spirit of preference points. Too many tags get returned and end up in the hands of folks who didn't want them badly enough to spend their preference points on them instead of going to those who did want them and were willing to spend their points. This keeps more points in circulation, contributes to point creep, and drives more traffic to OTC units.

Case in point: in 2022 I applied with a group of 3 for the elk tag our group has been hunting as often as we can get it for the past 20 years. We were in the bubble tier at 2 points and didn't get drawn in the primary. A handful (6-7 IIRC) of those tags appeared on the secondary list and we tried again with no luck. Another handful of those tags appeared on the leftover list and we tried yet again with no luck...got in the queue the morning of leftover day, typed everything in as fast as possible, and no dice. The 6 (collective) points we would have happily burned instead became 9 points to drive creep the next year, and we added another dreaded truck with foreign plates to the parking lot at a trailhead in an OTC unit. As an aside, I have used the leftover list to my advantage a few times and snagged tags I otherwise would've never had the patience to acquire in the primary draw, and I will continue to attempt to do so as needed. But I am still in favor of reducing returns and awarding more tags based on preference points instead of based on who has a fast Internet connection and time to kill in front of a computer on the first Tuesday in August.

 

[DanimalW]

And that right there is total BS.
Giving people an option to opt out

Well, when you’re the last State to release draw results it’s kind of nice that they give you an option. They could give you until May 20th to opt out, and it wouldn’t screw anyone over.

 

[COelk89]

I don't see why you would have to enforce R/NR allocations in the secondary draw and leftover sale if tags acquired via those means began consuming points. But if that were part of the deal, I would still support it even though it would likely mean fewer tags available to me (as a NR) in the secondary draw and leftover sale.

I generally favor a preference point system, and Colorado's lenient return policy undermines the spirit of preference points. Too many tags get returned and end up in the hands of folks who didn't want them badly enough to spend their preference points on them instead of going to those who did want them and were willing to spend their points. This keeps more points in circulation, contributes to point creep, and drives more traffic to OTC units.

Case in point: in 2022 I applied with a group of 3 for the elk tag our group has been hunting as often as we can get it for the past 20 years. We were in the bubble tier at 2 points and didn't get drawn in the primary. A handful (6-7 IIRC) of those tags appeared on the secondary list and we tried again with no luck. Another handful of those tags appeared on the leftover list and we tried yet again with no luck...got in the queue the morning of leftover day, typed everything in as fast as possible, and no dice. The 6 (collective) points we would have happily burned instead became 9 points to drive creep the next year, and we added another dreaded truck with foreign plates to the parking lot at a trailhead in an OTC unit. As an aside, I have used the leftover list to my advantage a few times and snagged tags I otherwise would've never had the patience to acquire in the primary draw, and I will continue to attempt to do so as needed. But I am still in favor of reducing returns and awarding more tags based on preference points instead of based on who has a fast Internet connection and time to kill in front of a computer on the first Tuesday in August.

I think the best solution is find a way to try to get more tags to the next hunter (or group) in line with the option to burn their points while restoring the original succeful applicant their pre draw points. That would satisfy both of our points of contention, though overall the leftover game has worked for me to pick up tags so I would not prefer to see a reduction in those. I don't disagree with anything you are saying and in Principal I actually largely agree. I am a non resident in may states I apply in. But in this instance it would have screwed me in my home state. Other states such as Wyoming have the option to withdraw/modify your application before a certain deadline, which I did. If Colorado had offered this option I would have withdrawn my application a month ago but it was already closed.

 

[cnelk]

I think the best solution is find a way to try to get more tags to the next hunter (or group) in line with the option to burn their points while restoring the original succeful applicant their pre draw points.

Isnt that the way the CPW does it with MSG returned tags?

So its not as if its something new

 

[sndmn11]

I like it, but it’s flawed. Would like to see a process where before the Secondary draw starts, people that didn’t get drawn in their target unit get a chance at those returned tags. Give them like a 3 day window to say they want to be in the drawing again.

I think they should expand the choices to ten per species, and those are the ten hunt codes you can buy for that year. It would benefit the folks who scout and know their plan if they snag a reissue the day before, or even during, the season.

I don't like seeing hunt codes come up on reissue that I applied for, missing them, and then seeing some ask, "I got this on the reissue because it took the most points in the draw, what do I do?".

I think give youth ten youth allocated hunt codes and ten buck/bull hunt codes to commit to in the primary, and follow the same rule as above.

 

[COelk89]

Isnt that the way the CPW does it with MSG returned tags?

So its not as if its something new

Sorry I'm not familiar with the acronym for MSG. I think Colorado does it for hunts that require a certain point minimum to draw if that is what you are referring to. Other states do it as well, I got called last year for next in line AZ elk that would have burned my points that I turned down...turning down that tag is another story lol

 

[COelk89]

Colorado could also look to allocate some tags to a random draw like Wyoming does. That wouldn't satisfy high PP holders, but for the sake of offering some more opportunity with the ammount of pressure there is, and also may help get points out of the system. If you draw in the random you lose points. And the high pp holders still get opportunity in the random. I get some ammount of satisfaction in random draws as an occasional gambler.

I would not want to see Colorado go to something like random for residents like Wyoming. We have too many people in this state and those of us who do the work to play the game should be rewarded IMO.

 

[cnelk]

Sorry I'm not familiar with the acronym for MSG.

Moose - Sheep - Goat

 

[Lil-Rokslider]

Colorado could also look to allocate some tags to a random draw like Wyoming does.

Colorado already does this

 

[COelk89]

Colorado already does this

I could always be mistaken, but I don't think they do.

 

[cnelk]

I could always be mistaken, but I don't think they do.

Its called the Hybrid Draw - a certain amount of tags are set aside from some select units - you must have a certain amount of PPs to apply.

Page 19 of the Regs

 

[Roger17]

Colorado already does this

But that's only in high point units and only residents can draw random due to the quota math. I presume he's advocating for a wider application of random draw component. It works for WY in generating massive application dollars. Of course, CO does not have a shortage of interest as it is.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

 

[COelk89]

But that's only in high point units and only residents can draw random due to the quota math. I presume he's advocating for a wider application of random draw component. It works for WY in generating massive application dollars. Of course, CO does not have a shortage of interest as it is.

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Yes you are correct Roger17. I tend to not chase those hunts that require the higher point levels as things stand now. Not the ultra coveted season dates/units according to historic draw odds. I save for hunts in the 1-5 point level for residents at most other than MSG.

I would be more likely to apply for a 1st choice hunt for elk or deer or ph with 0-2 points rather than a point and second choice hunt if there was some random allocation of tags for hunts that might currently draw out at 3 points or 4 or residents. That is one way they could attempt to get points cycled faster for folks in similar situation.

 

[ReaptheHeat]

I think they should expand the choices to ten per species, and those are the ten hunt codes you can buy for that year. It would benefit the folks who scout and know their plan if they snag a reissue the day before, or even during, the season.

I don't like seeing hunt codes come up on reissue that I applied for, missing them, and then seeing some ask, "I got this on the reissue because it took the most points in the draw, what do I do?".

I think give youth ten youth allocated hunt codes and ten buck/bull hunt codes to commit to in the primary, and follow the same rule as above.

Yep, this has happened to me way too often. Primary drawn out--> goes to secondary and drawn out --> pops up on leftover and sniped instantly.

Even giving resident only 24 hr hold on the leftover list would make me happy

 

[KsRancher]

Yep, this has happened to me way too often. Primary drawn out--> goes to secondary and drawn out --> pops up on leftover and sniped instantly.

Even giving resident only 24 hr hold on the leftover list would make me happy

I could get on board with not being able to get a tag that you didn’t have on 1st-4th choice. I do think the secondary draw could use some tweaking. But giving residents 24hrs would be no different than the current 100% youth preference. It would just go from the "youth draw" to the "resident draw". I will admit I like the secondary draw as I have two sons that are excited about getting to Colorado chasing elk and deer

 

[ReaptheHeat]

I could get on board with not being able to get a tag that you didn’t have on 1st-4th choice. I do think the secondary draw could use some tweaking. But giving residents 24hrs would be no different than the current 100% youth preference. It would just go from the "youth draw" to the "resident draw". I will admit I like the secondary draw as I have two sons that are excited about getting to Colorado chasing elk and deer

Not sure I'm following, the leftover list is open to everyone at a specific time.

 

[KsRancher]

Not sure I'm following, the leftover list is open to everyone at a specific time.

I didn't read very well. I had the secondary draw on the brain. And you said "leftover list". Sorry.