Point of diminishing return ?? Where ya think?

[Sapcut]

Interesting but very different than my experience with very high FOC. And perhaps large groups with flyers is not about that “FOC”. Any arrow that isn’t tuned for the bow and doesn’t fly well is very likely to have larger groups regardless of FOC. In my case, when I get flyers it is all about me and a target shooting mental dumpster fire release. When hunting and about to drive a stake thru an animal, it’s a different world.

What I have found is that with my arrows having very high FOC, 30+%, it has a greater spine window which makes it much easier to tune with a greater weight difference. Meaning you don’t have to change arrow shafts and spines after adding 50 grains to the front. But you have to build the shaft creatively rather than fletch them right out of the box.

Another thing possible with very high FOC, that I know you would never do with low FOC, is bareshaft with broadheads.

 

[Sapcut]

I think the Ashby koolaid has a flavor that is much more about bowhunting and arrow penetration than grouping arrows in target archery. His research findings are exhaustive and mighty compelling as well as unmatched against anything else that can be considered unbiased research. However, backs get up real high when his findings contradict target archer’s personal preferences.

 

[GLB]

One thing is for sure. That if you can get that heavy arrow flying straight at 7 yards. Plus have a sharp quality broadhead and hit what you’re aiming at. Then I would say that penetration will be phenomenal on game.

 

[Sapcut]

That if you can get that heavy arrow flying straight at 7 yards.

The video is only at 14-15 yards. So maybe that would do some damage.

 

[Beendare]

I don’t want to get into the Ashby or RF debate.

One thing you know, its hard to get an avg arrow- call it 450-550g to fly well with very high foc. You really have to getup in that very heavy range you shoot to get it to work.

Try Logging your groups- with the different setups. I think it will be illuminating.

If you are only shooting 15y hunting shots…then the added weight really isn’t much of a issue either way.

 

[Beendare]

One comment about all arrow setups;

Like I said, I have seen some surprising performance from light arrows-
shocking really. I do agree a arrow on the heavier side is a much better solution for any low energy guys like us trad guys.

Now my heavy and your heavy are different- grin. I consider heavy in the 11-12gpp range…and think there is diminishing returns over that.

Of course you disagree…and I get that….nothing is going to stop the heavy arrows you use on those close shots.

 

[GLB]

The video is only at 14-15 yards. So maybe that would do some damage.

Yep, no doubt it will. I guess my point is that whatever arrow weight you decided to go with, tune it to recover as quickly as possible. Then you will know that you are getting the full potential out of your setup. I would say flying straight by 7 yards is a good goal. However the best way is to know when it recovers is slow-mo video over head. Also you can shoot it through paper at 6 ft, and 12 ft to see how it’s starting out. Then I would shoot it through paper at 5 yards and 10 yards. I would want bullet hole at least by then. Really at 6 ft.

 

[Sapcut]

What I’ve seen and calculated in the past is that it is difficult to impossible to get 25-30+% FOC and end up with only 500 grains. By the time you add enough weight up front to a light 8.0 gpi shaft you end up with maybe 600-650 grains minimum. But maybe shaft material has lightened up since.

To me and my bowhunting objective, I think “grouping” arrows is overrated and more geared to target archery. I rarely shoot even two arrows at a time. The first arrow is what matters and getting your mind in a bowhunting truth moment for that one shot is more productive for my objective.

To me it’s like punting in college, I was always better when practicing with one football, maybe two. It was better to concentrate on the one opportunity to make something happen. rather than thinking about the next ball in the quiver. Or like eating brownies, I tend to think about the next one on the plate instead of the one in my mouth.

And just happen to be here now.

 

[Beendare]

I like a hunting practice session that is one arrow for all the marbles.

But that doesn’t tell you the inherit accuracy of the setup, only shooting and logging groups tells us that. And it doesn’t groove in good form.…repetition and perfect practice does that.

Were you a kicker Sap?
BTW, my wifes nieces fiancé is that new Vikings punter, Ryan is a good kid. They have been together since HS Around here. My neighbors kid Peyton is the FG kicker for Washington huskies but I doubt he has the range to make it to the pro’s.

 

[Sapcut]

Yea. Punter at Auburn ‘89-90. Thats awesome as Vikings punter. Hope he does well. I’m sure it isn’t easy. It’s business there.

 

[Arcus Venator]

Beendare,
That is very interesting information on the ultra extreme FOC arrows.

This is anecdotal as I have not collected and analyzed groups size.

I have never thought a 300gr point on arrows shot or grouped very good. Have successfully shot and hunted with 125gr to 250gr points/broadheads.

 

[Beendare]

Beendare,
That is very interesting information on the ultra extreme FOC arrows.

This is anecdotal as I have not collected and analyzed groups size.

I have never thought a 300gr point on arrows shot or grouped very good. Have successfully shot and hunted with 125gr to 250gr points/broadheads.

Yeah, when I was developing a heavy high FOC Arrow I was a pretty darn good competitive compound shooter. I could detect minor differences in arrow flight…now not so much, Im old and shooting a recurve- grin. When you go from a 3” group at 50y to 8” with flyers- something ain’t right. Could I have tweaked it to get it right- maybe.…but my heavy avg foc arrows hit like a ton of bricks.

Its undeniable that having confidence in your setup is a crucial factor. So if that very heavy setup does that for you- great, go with it.

IME, a tuned setup with really good arrow flight that gives me good consistent groups is the factor that gives me that confidence. The idea is first to hit what we are aiming at right?

(Sorry for the compound pic)
Thats the problem I had with that high FOC arrow I was developing for a water buff hunt…it just wasnt as accurate as an avg FOC arrow.
Heres a really good guy to get advice from, Jake Kaminsky Olympic medalist. Now the naysayers will argue, “ Thats target” …which is hogwash…accuracy first…that perfect arrow flight puts the whole arrow behind the tip and gives us the best penetration.

 

[Sapcut]

Well rats…. I have been doing something terribly wrong for a long time. The arrows I have built and shot for the past umpteen years are 30-34% FOC, have small fletching, of many different weights and fly perfectly. How on earth could that possibly happen?

 

[Arcus Venator]

No you have not. If it works for you, keep doing it. I have never ever calculated FOC on any of my arrows. Would have to look up how to do it even.

I go with how they fly. Too heavy and they drop too much, too light and too noisy.

 

[Sapcut]

My comment was obviously in jest but If one has a desire to build arrows for their bow to reap the benefits of a very high FOC and TUNED arrow…. he certainly can. It is simply due to one’s personal preferences. Arrows that aren’t tuned and fly straight, regardless of FOC, will not fly or group well.

 

[mahonsr]

Arrow weights and speed I shot today and some I had documented from the past with same bow. The momentum continues to increase as arrow weight increases, at least to the heaviest arrow I have so far.

812 gr. 169 fps .608
852 gr. 163 fps .616
875 gr. 160 fps .621
1077 gr. 150 fps .716
1120 gr. 147 fps .730
1361 gr. 138 fps .833

How was your target penetration compared to previous arrow setups? Could you notice significant improvement? I know…lots of variables there but I’d think it’d be telling

 

[Sapcut]

No possible way to make any conclusions based on that. Targets too worn out for one reason.

 

[Beendare]

I’m curious, Sap, what did you think about that Kaminsky vid on FOC?

 

[Sapcut]

I’m curious, Sap, what did you think about that Kaminsky vid on FOC?

Just watched it again since you asked.

Very elementary. He first simply explains what happens when the arrow is shot but not tuned. He shoots standard arrows right out of the box with 100 grain points, large vanes and I’m sure very light TAW. Again target archery is just that. It ain’t bowhunting. Different planet entirely than my world and my objectives.

To add…Light TAW meets his objectives with target archery. Light TAW is a must with using light bows to give the flattest trajectory possible and reach the target. Because reaching the target is the only objective.

His preferences to meet his objectives.

 

[nphunter]

I personally believe you reach a diminishing return when you can't be confident in your setup due to trajectory errors, lost animals due to lack of penetration or poor hits.

A super heavy slow arrow will not break through a bone with any kind of consistency, too many factors and anyone who thinks they can shoot through bone constantly is foolish. There is a video on a hunting show from a couple of years ago where the archery shoots a COC single bevel head on the tip of a 600+gr arrow from a 72lb bow with a 30.5" draw and hits a bull elk square in the shoulder at less than 10 yards, that arrow got about 5" of penetration, essentially it went until it hit bone, no recurve with any arrow is going to out penetrate that particular setup.

I really cannot wrap my head around the idea of target accuracy not mattering for hunting or being able to constantly hit the same spot not being a factor. Personally, I shoot a lot and shoot a long way, I have been very successful in killing a lot of elk with well-placed shots. The animals I have lost in the past have been too poorly placed shots, these would have been mitigated if I practiced more and was more confident in my ability to execute a good shot, at the time I was young and had no clue about tuning a bow and the effort that it took to consistently kill elk with one.

I also shoot a recurve and treat it the same as my compound, I shoot it a lot and I shoot it far, sometimes as far as 50-60 yards and I shoot groups at these ranges. I tuned by the bow to shoot a bare shaft with a fletched arrow as far as I wanted to shoot and then started shooting broadheads. My arrow ended up around 600gr because I purchased 400 spine arrows and added tip weight until the flew like I wanted which ended up being 250gr between the insert and head.
If you give me two arrows that have the same durability and accuracy, also the same trajectory only one arrow has low and the other has high FOC I would choose the high FOC every time. However, I would choose either of the other attributes over FOC, (accuracy, durability).

Here are two arrows shot consecutively at 40 yards from my recurve, when I can shoot like this I am happy, both hit where I wanted them too and both flew the same which lets me know I did my part correctly. I feel like I could shoot the vitals of a deer at 20 yards with my eyes closed and for me when my groups open up to 4-5" I feel like that is my range limit. I don't understand how having an effective range of up to 20 yards is a good thing?

Here's a picture of my 600gr arrows at 40 yards from my recurve. I don’t understand how this isn’t a good thing or relative to hitting a deer?




Anyway, it's obvious that everyone has their own ideas about archery, but to get on an archery form and say there is no correlation between being and accurate shooter at targets and being an accurate shooter at animals seems crazy to me.