Point of diminishing return ?? Where ya think?

[Sapcut]

Perhaps in order to have an unbiased conversation in hopes to think about unbiased answers, without getting defensive about your personal preferences, I’ll repeat my original questions….

Have you ever seen arrow penetration on bone hits compromised due to the arrow being too light but fast? Have you ever seen arrow penetration compromised on bone hits due to arrows being too heavy but slow?

 

[Arcus Venator]

No, unless I miss what I am aiming at.

 

[Beendare]

Perhaps in order to have an unbiased conversation in hopes to think about unbiased answers, without getting defensive about your personal preferences, I’ll repeat my original questions….

Have you ever seen arrow penetration on bone hits compromised due to the arrow being too light but fast? Have you ever seen arrow penetration compromised on bone hits due to arrows being too heavy but slow?

Ive literally seen somewhere north of 300 critters shot with an arrow between hunting, guiding and calling for friends.

Admittedly, I have a bias to what I’ve seen work. Isn’t that whar experience is…forming a bias?

I’ve seen everything work…no kidding…from 350g arrows with big over the top inefficient heads to 900g Buff arrows.

I think;
Its important not to focus on just one factor, be it; trajectory (fast and flat), penetration- whatever.

My opinion is to blend the different factors and match them to your setup and hunting style. More specifically, a guy shooting shorter shots doesn’t need to be as concerned with trajectory- fast and flat. Its probably better to be on the heavier side (arrow) which gives you a quieter shot- less string jumping.

A guy that wants to have the best chance of hitting what he is aiming at- on all shots should consider and all around arrow setup that balances good trajectory with all of the other factors. In a trad bow, I’ve seen a good balance with 9-12gpp arrows.

There are many of these “factors“ blabbered around like gospel and frankly some are just plain silly in my experience. Its much simpler than that.

The over riding factors;
1) strive for perfect arrow flight and best accuracy….and
2) a very efficient head like a 2 blade or tapered 3 blade is a penetrating monster…and will turn even a light setup into a killing machine.

From there you are on your own….

 

[Beendare]

And failures due to the setup itself?

These mostly boil down to bad shots. I’ve seen mech heads open in flight causing a horrible shot…and Ive seen bad shots with fixed blades…then spin checked the guys remaining arrows in his quiver and they wobbled like crazy. Is that the arrows fault? Ugh no.

I think we all know by now, a big mech head matched to a very light arrow is a bad idea.
So I suppose I have a bias against that.

And its a fact, a heavier arrow absorbs more of a bows energy.

Where I think the ‘Balancing all the factors’ comes in …Fact; a bow and arrow is very effective- no matter the setup…so going overboard on any one factor actually hurts you on the other factors.

 

[Sapcut]

I purposely eliminated about 15 other factors regarding arrows and intentionally asked about one factor… arrow mass penetrating bone or not. As you responded to my two extremely simple questions, you discuss everything other than an answer to the questions. But generally speaking, credit to your experience and info you did discuss.

To the questions… I’ll take that as “yes I have many times seen an arrow not penetrate bone due to being too light and and no I’ve never seen an arrow stop penetrating bone due to being too heavy.”

 

[Beendare]

Sap, Thats not what I said. You are seeking confirmation not opinions.

You are solely focusing on one factor….and its a very tiny part of the whole equation…thus I address the whole equation.

You want bone..ok, yes I have seen arrows of all types break bones. My buddy broke the big front leg bone- completely severed it with his 350g arrow/ Rocket Steelhead. Bad shot of course but the big leg bone was swinging around like it was on a string. colorado out of Lemon res.

a buddy shot a 250# boar hog through both shoulder blades and sticking out the other side…..45# Hoyt recurve, 440g arrow. Shot was too high. 1/4 mile later he got another arrow in it. hog had a hard time moving with the arrow sticking through it.

Ive seen a lot of low 400g arrows break bones…heck, one pro I helped guide for blacktails put an arrow through the front shoulder bones low in a blacktail at 70yds that pinned his legs- he couldn’t move. 410-420 g.

Ive seen just as good of performance or better with arrows in the 500g range. I put a 3 blade through both shoulders of an elk slightly downhill of me- 3 bl hole through both shoulder bones along with broken ribs- the arrow went so far we never found it.

when it comes to heavy arrows…Ive seen 6 big Australian water buff ( 2,000#) die to 800g plus arrows.

Ive been around and guided guys that shot arrows in the 650 range…but frankly, those few guys I’ve seen shoot at game missed low…so I can’t really compare.

 

[Sapcut]

Yes I know that was not what you said.

Of course, my question was regarding only one factor and of course knowing there are many factors to arrow lethality. I like to learn specifics and hone my weaponry. I think I have the basics down.

500 grains thru both elk shoulders with three blade and arrow went out of sight? That is impressive even with a fast compound.

Funny how accuracy seems to disappear at the thought of shooting anything over 500 grains. Even with guys using sights.

 

[Sapcut]

You are seeking confirmation not opinions.

Correct. I am seeking confirmation of the upper end of arrow mass at which it will not penetrate bone, should anyone know. Then I can work backwards as needed when building my arrows. Hence the sole reason for the original post and building a 1361 test arrow. Not how to shoot targets then hunt animals with a target archery bow.

A realize a 500 grain arrow from a 47# bow certainly doesn’t answer the question but still interested if anyone has ever seen that point of diminishing return.

And correct again, since you mentioned it, I am not looking for opinions on how a 47# bow can put an arrow thru a rib cage.

However, blowing thru elk shoulders, pig shoulders, front leg bones, etc is very good info for anyone that is interested in arrow lethality versus 3D archery. Because those setups will also kill anything when the shot is perfect as well. It’s not always the other way around.

 

[Arcus Venator]

Like I stated before, I do not know if you can build an arrow heavy enough to diminish penetration. IMO it would have to be weighed in pounds not grains.

My testing showed increasing momentum all the way up to 1500gr. At some point the physical weight of the arrow would overmatch the working of the limbs. Where is that point? I have no idea, > 50% of draw weight? 60%, 70%, higher????

Without going to extreme measures of construction, I do not think you can build an arrow heavy enough to see the point of diminishing returns you looking for.

 

[Sapcut]

Like I stated before, I do not know if you can build an arrow heavy enough to diminish penetration. IMO it would have to be weighed in pounds not grains.

My testing showed increasing momentum all the way up to 1500gr. At some point the physical weight of the arrow would overmatch the working of the limbs. Where is that point? I have no idea, > 50% of draw weight? 60%, 70%, higher????

Without going to extreme measures of construction, I do not think you can build an arrow heavy enough to see the point of diminishing returns you looking for.

Yea, building the arrow at those 1500+ grains is certainly a limiting factor. So far, what I’ve seen is the only thing keeping a heavyweight arrow not breaking bone is due to folks not using them to create the data.

Buff hunters do use heavyweights for one reason, to increase penetration. As well as using heavier than average bows to increase speed of the heavy arrows. Decreasing arrow weight to increase speed doesn’t seem to be their answer. Which means when an arrow stops when impacting the bones of a whitetail, improvements can easily be made rather than just chalking it up to a bad hit.

Just interesting to learn more about this end of the spectrum of this one factor. It seems to differ than most want to admit. Of course, the dynamics of broadheads, sharpness, tuning, fletching, FOC, etc. etc. can all be equal on any arrow to isolate this one variable. And which are different conversations.

 

[Arcus Venator]

Just pondering a little more....
One could fill an aluminum arrow with lead to get the weight up, or manufacture a piece of rebar or steel rod into an arrow to really get the weight up.

But that would throw arrow tuning out the window, decreasing penetration potential.

 

[Sapcut]

As most probably know by now it is well documented that Papua New Guinea arrows were well over 2000 grains and efficiently killed animals at will. I do wonder if it is because the heavier materials were all that were available or it was the best options available to most efficiently put meat on their tables.

On other end of spectrum, NA Indians using light bamboo arrows was and is certainly not the most effective but was probably the most available shaft material at a given time.

 

[Beendare]

FWIW,
I say build that 1300g arrow and do an honest mapping of your groups with an avg tuned arrow and report back. There are apps that can do that. Let us know.

Heres that bull through both shoulders…


Apologies, a compound kill in a trad forum. Last day, we were in a bedded group of elk all screaming. I called a bull into my buddy he shot (70# 380g, steelhead) my buddy had shot…then we switched and he dropped back and called in this bull to me.
About 10-12y, downhill of me. He came running in and stopped, turned as I swung on him ( from my knees) slightly quartering to me. I shot quick so it should have been a bit further back.
440g with either a Hellrazor or a Magnus 3bl SS- essentially the same head

It caught both Scapulas, the thinner part 1/2” to 5/8” thick and ribs. The arrow was somewhere in the stratosphere.…it must have ricocheted up…never found it.

The best part was the bull never knew he was hit. My buddy bugled and he just stood there looking around… I remember thinking “how does he not see me” I feet like I could reach out and touch him. About 8 seconds later he lunged 2 steps as he was down.
we found my buddies arrow with 5” of blood, poor penetration, a full day of looking never found the bull. I didnt see the exact hit as the bull was turning on his shot.

 

[Beendare]

So poor performance from my buddies light arrow…and overall I’m not a fan of them
BUT
then years before in Oregon I called a bull to him that was coming in and saw him move at 20y. The bull spun like a cat looking at us. I thought, “Ugh oh the jig is up”

He shot that bull frontal in the thick mane. The arrow disappeared inside the bull. The bull reared up on his back legs pawing at the air. It reminded me of the old western series of the Lone Rangers horse.

then the bull came down took about four steps and tipped over breaking a rotten log right in front of us. Poleaxed. It was probably the most amazing elk kill I’ve seen and I’ve seen probably close to 60 dying to an arrow. It was awesome. Autopsy revealed that short light overdraw arrow went through that elk lengthwise and was poking in the hide on the rear ham. Incredible performance.

He was shooting 70#, an overdraw, 25” aluminum 2213 with an 85g Rocky Mountain fixed 3blade. Not sure of arrow weight but probably about 350? Super light.…but it went through at least 6’ of elk. ( no significant bones)

No photo.
I had all of those pictures saved on a computer and the hard drive got corrupted so I lost about 15 years of my photographs.

Admittedly these are all anecdotal examples. My take, the physics greatly underestimates the effectiveness of all Bow/arrow setups. They all work. To claim a “Threshold” is disingenuous.

I do lean towards heavier over light arrows…and think the 2 main tenants; Good arrow flight…and an efficient BH are huge factors in performance.

 

[Sapcut]

Impressive arrow performance information.

say build that 1300g arrow and do an honest mapping of your groups with an avg tuned arrow and report back.

I posted a video of one shot with that arrow, at least. Accuracy shooting that arrow is not an issue or the issue regarding actual penetration just like it isn’t with any arrow. If it is, then accuracy obviously needs to be increased and another conversation. Desired trajectory becomes the limiting factor. For the 1300+ gr., trajectory at some distance, probably around 20 yards, will not be desired. Compared to my 900+ arrow with desired trajectory about 30 yards. Both however are pretty much the same at my avg. shot of 12-15 yards. If I built something north of 1800-2000 grains I may be better off just throwing it. Speaking of “accuracy”, I think it isn’t a shooters accuracy that is the most common cause for notsoperfect arrow impact , as you alluded to above. It is wild animals moving. Much more common than I believe people want to admit.

 

[GLB]

Just curious have you slow-mo that heavy arrow to see how it’s flying and when it recovers from paradox and at what distance is it flying straight?

The reason I ask and (I know that wood arrows are a different animal) but when I was shooting heavy wood arrows 750 grains + the arrow would noodle all the way to the target. They would group extremely well and had great flight but in slow-mo filming they were extremely slow to recover from paradox.

My lighter weight arrows 550 grains would recover much faster, certainly before 20 yards. My accuracy and grouping would be the same for both heavy and lighter arrows at 20 yards.

I shoot carbons now and they recover faster than wood regardless of weight, but I wonder if carbons would recover slower in the extreme heavy mass weights.

 

[Sapcut]

I don’t have a good slow mo of it but do have this short video below of same arrow just a bit lighter at 1336 grains. It is my normal GT Ultralight 300 inside a 2213 shaft up to the fletching and about 30% FOC. It does fly well leaving paradox quite early.

 

[GLB]

Slow-mo will be the only way to tell how fast it recovers and flies straight.

 

[Sapcut]

This is a bit slower. My son edits hunting tv shows and his skills just came in handy for me.

 

[Beendare]

Good stuff above Sapcut......

I do think Accuracy takes many forms;
The slot trajectory of an arrow
The shooter
Then the arrow itself.

slot trajectory;
We are making things a whole lot harder if 2-3 yds range error is a bad miss or wounding. Heck, we have all missed...and speaking for myself- it was a tough pill to swallow going to a recurve where even a couple yards off affected my shot significantly. Then there is gaps. Whether you gap shoot or not....that arrow arc is a factor.

The Shooter;
In discussions I had some almost 30 years ago when I would go to the Industry shows every year with a Rep buddy, I talked to the Easton engineers about this stuff. They had reps that would de tune a bow and put on a presentation. For example- perfect tune was 1/4" nok high and they would move it to 3/4"

The arrow flew like crap...but a guy with perfect form could group those arrows- its pretty amazing. Dewayne Martin who out shot everyone in Vegas one year told me his arrows were not perfectly tuned. WTH? Yeah, after logging thousands of shot, he found he shot an avg of 1-2 points better with a slightly out of tune arrow.

The Arrow;
Now, we all know BH shooting is a whole different animal. The Experienced and pro shooters I know agree with the Easton engineers- that FOC range they recommend just works for bowhunters. I myself tried very high FOC some 20 years ago [yeah, at that time, I drank the Ashby Koolaid] and was perplexed when I Logged the shots with the 27% FOC arrow. It just wasn't as consistently accurate. I wanted to like it...but the groups don't lie. I talked to Easton about that and the engineer laughed- the arrow has a front down bias. It is also less stable on the launch when the arrow noodles out of the bow. If you have a slight front end balance- the Easton range- they found that to be the best overall accuracy.

Its a worthy exercise, logging your groups. An ASA pro buddy taught me a good trick. You fletch them identical but number them.....and just shoot them all in the same round not really knowing which is which- so no mental bias. Back then we would mark them on a paper target in a small clipboard. Now they have an app.

Anyway, I was doing that with different BH setups to have more confidence which was the best arrow setup. The much larger groups...and more flyers with the very high FOC [and 800g + arrows] told the tale.

Its an eye opener. It persuaded me that very heavy...and high FOC was a really bad idea for a bowhunter that wants to hit what they are aiming at.....