Point of diminishing return ?? Where ya think?

[Sapcut]

Anyway, it's obvious that everyone has their own ideas about archery, but to get on an archery form and say there is no correlation between being and accurate shooter at targets and being an accurate shooter at animals seems crazy to me.

Yes sir that absolutely is good shooting. But I am more concerned about animals moving during that arrow flight time period. That’s why we differ regarding your comment.

But regarding bowhunting correlating, “target archery” largely equates to the use of light bow draw weights and thus light arrow weights. And that is for the purpose of making it easier to shoot for longer periods of time and shoot at long distances. It’s just a different activity.

Then that same light tackle is taken to the woods to kill animals as if accuracy is everything and the only thing. (Sure they will kill animals well with perfect shots as do heavier efficiently used setups.) Then if and when an animal moves at many of string releases, the arrow hits in a less than desired body location compromising penetration too many times…. regardless of the awards and Olympic medals one may be actually wearing at the time. When that happens the excuse is….”Rats, a bad shot, a lost animal and I should practice more and be more accurate. Because I can control everything when shooting animals as well as because I personally enjoy shooting lighter arrows while suggesting heavy arrows will not penetrate any better any way so no need to use them.”

That is my answer as well the common arrow used in target archery…. out of the box with 100 grain head. Light years less than best for killing animals.

And by some folks, heavier arrows with heavier bows can be shot very accurately at a chosen avg. hunting distance when THE shot is taken. If the arrow needs to break bones before entering or exiting vitals, they have a mighty good chance to do so (based on my experience). Not to mention, less than zero need to put a second or third arrow close to the first one.

That’s how they don’t correlate.

 

[nphunter]

Yes sir that absolutely is good shooting. But I am more concerned about animals moving during that arrow flight time period. That’s why we differ regarding your comment.

But regarding bowhunting correlating, “target archery” largely equates to the use of light bow draw weights and thus light arrow weights. And that is for the purpose of making it easier to shoot for longer periods of time and shot at long distances. It’s just a different activity.

Then that same light tackle is taken to the woods to kill animals as if accuracy is everything and the only thing. (Sure they will kill animals well with perfect shots as do heavier efficiently used setups.) Then if and when an animal moves at many of string releases, the arrow hits in a less than desired body location compromising penetration too many times….

That’s how they don’t correlate.

Interesting theory, in my experience, when animals move they typically go forward which leads to a gut shot. Almost any bow with any arrow will zip through the guts with a sharp head. In my mind, a bow with a faster arrow would have less of a chance of missing if an animal starts to move forward and might still be in the kill zone vs a heavy slow arrow that will almost certainly go through the guts. I also believe in that particular situation that a big mechanical head or even a large 3 or 4-blade fixed would probably have a higher recovery rate than a large single bevel zipping right through with a super penetrator setup.

I really am not too familiar with recurve target archery but would tend to agree that they are probably shooting light arrows and lbs which would not carry over well to the woods. However, I do believe that if a person takes hunting tackle, moderate-weight arrows, and bows and practices the same processes as target archers to become proficient and very accurate they would be much better off than the guy who just stumps shooting in his backyard.

Anyway, it was interesting reading people's different opinions and perspectives throughout this thread.

 

[Steve O]

I’m sure all 6 pages of opinion are riveting but don’t have time to read them.

1. Running equipment at extremes no matter what the discipline doesn’t typically work well.

2. Most of if not all the traditional bow hunters that have taken the Super Slam have used a moderate to light arrow out of moderate weight bow.

Good luck.

 

[Beendare]

Good shooting NP…and good voice of reason post.

Thats what I get from Jakes video….its all about accuracy and thats a function of good arrow flight. He didn’t even mention arrow weight.

To say that the repeatable accuracy is just a target thing is silly…heck its a bowhunting/ killing critters thing. ….
I have gotten my best advice from guys that can shoot…bowhunters but first they are great shooters. You are now on my watchlist NP! Grin

 

[Sapcut]

Thats what I get from Jakes video….its all about accuracy and thats a function of good arrow flight. He didn’t even mention arrow weight.

I totally agree with both of you, target acrchery IS all about accuracy, hence the rings with scores. Bowhunting is about killing and recovering the animal with your arrow which certainly includes accuracy.

Does his words "standard arrow out of the box with standard 100 grain head" not indicate arrow weight? You think he's using a 12.0 gpi FMJ? I doubt it. He's using a light arrow. And that's the only weight arrow that can be shot with any degree of satifactory trajectory with the light weight bows commonly used in ring scoring bowshooting.

Unless I missed it, actually I think what he didn't mention was bowhunting.

Silly? I think silly is when a "bowhunter" thinks accuracy is all that is needed to kill live animals that usually move at the shot.

 

[nphunter]

I totally agree with both of you, target acrchery IS all about accuracy, hence the rings with scores. Bowhunting is about killing and recovering the animal with your arrow which certainly includes accuracy.

Does his words "standard arrow out of the box with standard 100 grain head" not indicate arrow weight? You think he's using a 12.0 gpi FMJ? I doubt it. He's using a light arrow. And that's the only weight arrow that can be shot with any degree of satifactory trajectory with the light weight bows commonly used in ring scoring bowshooting.

Unless I missed it, actually I thin what he didn't mention was bowhunting.

Silly? I think silly is when a "bowhunter" thinks accuracy is all that is needed to kill live animals that usually move at the shot.

I should have mentioned my recurve is only 45lbs ish at my draw length and I’m shooting those 600gr arrow instinctively off of the shelf. I do use a clicker but no aiming point, I just draw back and start at what I want to hit, I do string crawl. So light bows will shoot heavy arrows well at distance, I often play pig with my kids, they are shooting compounds so they like to back up to make shots harder on me. I can hit my 80 yard target pretty well with the recurve but I’m aiming half way up the tree behind it.

 

[Sapcut]

I should have mentioned my recurve is only 45lbs ish at my draw length and I’m shooting those 600gr arrow instinctively off of the shelf. I do use a clicker but no aiming point, I just draw back and start at what I want to hit, I do string crawl. So light bows will shoot heavy arrows well at distance, I often play pig with my kids, they are shooting compounds so they like to back up to make shots harder on me. I can hit my 80 yard target pretty well with the recurve but I’m aiming half way up the tree behind it.

That is very good shooting. Im not even sure what string walking is but I figure you are also getting the subconcious benefit of having that arrow trajectory imprinted on your brain. I really like seeing an arrow fly.

 

[Billy Goat]

It will surprise you what some of the Olympic recurve guys shoot poundage wise, a lot of them are pretty stout. I was watching a boy crush in USA Archery a couple weeks ago shooting 53#. That's what my hunting weight is with both of my Widows.


Brady Ellison (who just set another world record) was shooting I think 56# in the Olympics, don't know what he is currently shooting but it's usually 50#+.



Just saying, I wouldn't be but so dismissive of what some of the target archers use in comparison.


Magnumitis is thinking you can overpower poor shot placement, it happens outside of rifles.

 

[wcasey755]

I think there is a sweet spot where you have good penetration while not losing so much speed that the animal has four seconds to get out of the way. IN MY OPINION the sweet spot is around 600.

 

[ledflight]

A super heavy slow arrow will not break through a bone with any kind of consistency, too many factors and anyone who thinks they can shoot through bone constantly is foolish. There is a video on a hunting show from a couple of years ago where the archery shoots a COC single bevel head on the tip of a 600+gr arrow from a 72lb bow with a 30.5" draw and hits a bull elk square in the shoulder at less than 10 yards, that arrow got about 5" of penetration, essentially it went until it hit bone, no recurve with any arrow is going to out penetrate that particular setup.

At under 10yards the arrow probably did not yet come out of paradox.
As described...

 

[Sapcut]

Totally agree. Center shot risers result in a tuned arrow having less arrow paradox. A tuned arrow with very high FOC is another way to significantly decrease arrow paradox.

 

[Sapcut]

I personally believe you reach a diminishing return when you can't be confident in your setup due to trajectory errors, lost animals due to lack of penetration or poor hits.

A super heavy slow arrow will not break through a bone with any kind of consistency, too many factors and anyone who thinks they can shoot through bone constantly is foolish. There is a video on a hunting show from a couple of years ago where the archery shoots a COC single bevel head on the tip of a 600+gr arrow from a 72lb bow with a 30.5" draw and hits a bull elk square in the shoulder at less than 10 yards, that arrow got about 5" of penetration, essentially it went until it hit bone, no recurve with any arrow is going to out penetrate that particular setup.

I really cannot wrap my head around the idea of target accuracy not mattering for hunting or being able to constantly hit the same spot not being a factor. Personally, I shoot a lot and shoot a long way, I have been very successful in killing a lot of elk with well-placed shots. The animals I have lost in the past have been too poorly placed shots, these would have been mitigated if I practiced more and was more confident in my ability to execute a good shot, at the time I was young and had no clue about tuning a bow and the effort that it took to consistently kill elk with one.

I also shoot a recurve and treat it the same as my compound, I shoot it a lot and I shoot it far, sometimes as far as 50-60 yards and I shoot groups at these ranges. I tuned by the bow to shoot a bare shaft with a fletched arrow as far as I wanted to shoot and then started shooting broadheads. My arrow ended up around 600gr because I purchased 400 spine arrows and added tip weight until the flew like I wanted which ended up being 250gr between the insert and head.
If you give me two arrows that have the same durability and accuracy, also the same trajectory only one arrow has low and the other has high FOC I would choose the high FOC every time. However, I would choose either of the other attributes over FOC, (accuracy, durability).

Here are two arrows shot consecutively at 40 yards from my recurve, when I can shoot like this I am happy, both hit where I wanted them too and both flew the same which lets me know I did my part correctly. I feel like I could shoot the vitals of a deer at 20 yards with my eyes closed and for me when my groups open up to 4-5" I feel like that is my range limit. I don't understand how having an effective range of up to 20 yards is a good thing?

Here's a picture of my 600gr arrows at 40 yards from my recurve. I don’t understand how this isn’t a good thing or relative to hitting a deer?

View attachment 524609

View attachment 524611
Anyway, it's obvious that everyone has their own ideas about archery, but to get on an archery form and say there is no correlation between being and accurate shooter at targets and being an accurate shooter at animals seems crazy to me.

Regarding shot distance comments…

25 ish is about by max depending on the situation. This was last year at 27 yards off ground. Lucky shot thru lower lung and nicked heart. 875 grains.



Although younger buck than I thought, a couple years ago at 27 yards from ground. Impacted a little higher than ideal but didn’t mind aiming tight to shoulder as far from guts as possible. Thru shoulder out ribs. I shot him, put bow down and walked to him. No waiting necessary.

 

[GLB]

I will admit that it is fun to experiment with my setups during the off season. I think everyone that is serious about getting the most out of our equipment should do so. However in the 30 plus years that I have been in the trad archery world is that most who “test the waters “come to this conclusion. That the “Old Timers” got it right.
10-12 grains per pound with a sharp broadhead and put it where it need to be with a perfectly tuned arrow makes for an efficient setup.

 

[ledflight]

It's fun to play around. Crazy heavy arrows that have a visible arc are a lot off fun to watch.
Sometimes you learn how quiet your bow can get, or how little difference in trajectory you can get with a 100 grain jump up in weight, for example.

 

[Beendare]

I will admit that it is fun to experiment with my setups during the off season. I think everyone that is serious about getting the most out of our equipment should do so. However in the 30 plus years that I have been in the trad archery world is that most who “test the waters “come to this conclusion. That the “Old Timers” got it right.
10-12 grains per pound with a sharp broadhead and put it where it need to be with a perfectly tuned arrow makes for an efficient setup.

Bingo…funny how that works, eh?

But, hey shoot what you want.
My problem is with the internet influencers saying you have to shoot XXXX or you won’t be able to kill anything- thats total Snake oil.

The old 10-12gpp is a great all around setup…to claim its ineffective is total hogwash.

.