Point of diminishing return ?? Where ya think?

[oldgoat]

From my 14ish years with a recurve and all the folks I know who shoot one, that seems like the cut off point for who is genuinely good, and those who you hope the animal about runs them over.

I also think practice should regularly happen past the hunting effective range.

Lastly, I think that is a distance where form causes things to open up greatly. Akin to a 70 yard compound shot, or 500 yard rifle shot. If a person has good form with their trad bow the drop from 30 -> 40 yards isn't too much for the brain to compensate for "instinctively". If one is going heavy enough that their brain can't calculate the trajectory, I think that is a diminishing return.

I'm in this boat, I had to finish off a wounded moose a couple years ago, was able to get closer than forty yards, but if I hadn't I'm very proficient to 40 and even beyond IF my speed is sufficient and for me that's in the low 170's, you can crush all the bones you want, but if there's no vitals on the other side then it don't matter. Now if you were going for some kind of water buffalo, muskox or elephant etc, then that arrow might come in real handy!

 

[Sapcut]

I dont have an educated opinion about your original question because I've never put that much thought into it, but I'll bet those arrows make that Widow dead quiet!

It is pretty stealthy even when practicing with a glove. Although I shoot bare fingers hunting to make the shot even quieter, all of the 800+ gr arrows I shoot are not dead quiet but not too bad.

 

[sndmn11]

I'm in this boat, I had to finish off a wounded moose a couple years ago, was able to get closer than forty yards, but if I hadn't I'm very proficient to 40 and even beyond IF my speed is sufficient and for me that's in the low 170's, you can crush all the bones you want, but if there's no vitals on the other side then it don't matter. Now if you were going for some kind of water buffalo, muskox or elephant etc, then that arrow might come in real handy!

Yep! @KickinNDishin is slinging 180fps-ish with I think a 520gr arrow from her compound based solely on what I have seen those two specs pass through elk many times. The iy question was if it would be too slow for mriple sight pins, but she has 20-40 in 5yd increments and can roll to 60. I have 100% confidence in that all.

 

[Sapcut]

It would be cool to have some sort of a force meter measuring the force of impact of an arrow as it hits a target medium. That would show a good bit of information regarding penetration potential.

 

[Rob5589]

It would be cool to have some sort of a force meter measuring the force of impact of an arrow as it hits a target medium. That would show a good bit of information regarding penetration potential.

You know, surprised there hasn't been something like that. That would be an interesting experiment for sure. I'd bet Cody Greenwood could come up with something.

 

[journeyman713]

You've reached to point of diminished return when you shoot at a grazing animal, it hears the shot, looks up and sees it coming, goes back to grazing for a moment, then moves out of the way in plenty of time, and has a nice day.

 

[Sapcut]

You've reached to point of diminished return when you shoot at a grazing animal, it hears the shot, looks up and sees it coming, goes back to grazing for a moment, then moves out of the way in plenty of time, and has a nice day.

Regarding penetrating the big bones of animal in which the arrow impacts.... I think the point of diminishing return for an arrow on the heavy end of the spectrum, which I nor anyone I know has yet to see (hence the origial post), will have the same result as the arrow on the light end of the spectrum. That said result is the arrow stopping once hitting the bone. And unfortunately that is a result that is commonly seen with bow hunters. Objectively, unbiasly speaking, which end of the spectrum makes more sense to be on if your goal is to shoot and recover animals regarding arrow weight with everything else equal.....as in broadheads, arrow tuning, backyard still target accuracy, etc.

Are we more interested in reaching the animal at longer distances like we are with 3D targets or breaking and penetrating bone, (should that happen) once hitting the animal we want to recover. One is with the lighter mass arrow and one is with the heavier mass arrow.

 

[journeyman713]

Regarding penetrating the big bones of animal in which the arrow impacts.... I think the point of diminishing return for an arrow on the heavy end of the spectrum, which I nor anyone I know has yet to see (hence the origial post), will have the same result as the arrow on the light end of the spectrum. That said result is the arrow stopping once hitting the bone. And unfortunately that is a result that is commonly seen with bow hunters. Objectively, unbiasly speaking, which end of the spectrum makes more sense to be on if your goal is to shoot and recover animals regarding arrow weight with everything else equal.....as in broadheads, arrow tuning, backyard still targer accuracy, etc.

Are we more interested in reaching the animal at longer distances like we are with 3D targets or breaking and penetrating bone, (should that happen) once hitting the animal we want to recover. One is with the lighter mass arrow and one is with the heavier mass arrow.

I consider myself to be in the lighter is better camp. Reason being, a flatter trajectory and how it relates to improved accuracy. As in, hitting where you want to, being the of the highest priority.

Lobbing an arrow that is better weighed in pounds, than grains, almost seems ridiculous to me. Misjudging the distance by a little as a yard, will surely change the point of desired impact, and you can't ignore the amount of time it takes to arrive there either. I'm not sure hoping for the consolation prize of broken bones, is the best approach.

 

[inyago]

It would be quite easy to set up a force plate to register impact ft/lbs. or newton meters.. The cost of equipment
computers and program write might deter a enthusiast home hobbyist type.

 

[ozyclint]

force meter to measure impact force? Already exists, it's called grain scales, a chronograph and a calculator.

 

[bobinmi]

The point of diminishing returns is when the trajectory becomes unacceptable to the shooter. If someone can figure out drops and shoot accurately to the distance that they want to shoot I don't think anyone will make an arrow that is so heavy that the physics become less than. I for one shoot a stupid heavy arrow, 700ish grains for whitetail. It made the bow quieter and I haven't taken a shot over 25yds on one in a long time with a bow. It meant that my crawl was very small and its a nice efficient set up for what I do. I would never take my current setup to the west. I've got another arrow setup in the 530ish range that I'd bring out west. I'm confident in that setup out to 40yds. Its not nearly as quiet and I really had to work on the gaps to get them ingrained because of how big they are.

 

[Btaylor]

force meter to measure impact force? Already exists, it's called grain scales, a chronograph and a calculator.

Dude, that means math. Have you done math? It sucks.

 

[inyago]

Grain scales and chronographs.. Yeah very accurate data alright.. And whose chrono do you think we use, what
time of the day is that ect ect.. B/s in B/s out..

 

[ozyclint]

Just go ahead and make a force meter that's more accurate then. May the force meter be with you.

 

[Sapcut]

Just go ahead and make a force meter that's more accurate then. May the force meter be with you.

I get the calculated equation for force and momentum on paper and agree with it.

However, it would really be interesting to see a measurement at the actual impact of the target. Then can compare from arrow to arrow, speed to mass weight, etc. Then you can actually see how the momentum equation actually works. How more mass and less speed compared to higher speed and less mass…when those two show momentum the same.

There has to be a more simple than you think way to do that. Kind of like the sledge hammer force hitting the bell gag at the fair.

 

[Sapcut]

The point of diminishing returns is when the trajectory becomes unacceptable to the shooter. If someone can figure out drops and shoot accurately to the distance that they want to shoot I don't think anyone will make an arrow that is so heavy that the physics become less than. I for one shoot a stupid heavy arrow, 700ish grains for whitetail. It made the bow quieter and I haven't taken a shot over 25yds on one in a long time with a bow. It meant that my crawl was very small and its a nice efficient set up for what I do. I would never take my current setup to the west. I've got another arrow setup in the 530ish range that I'd bring out west. I'm confident in that setup out to 40yds. Its not nearly as quiet and I really had to work on the gaps to get them ingrained because of how big they are.

About the same here. My sweet spot is about 900 for whitetails. Average shot has always been about 12-15 yards. Killed bucks at 25 and 27 yards last year with about 875 gr. I will change to a lighter TuffHead creating about 800 grains for elkin… if I go again.

Below is a 1325 grainer I just made. Dead animal creator to about 20 or so yards.

 

[Rob5589]

About the same here. My sweet spot is about 900 for whitetails. Average shot has always been about 12-15 yards. Killed bucks at 25 and 27 yards last year with about 875 gr. I will change to a lighter TuffHead creating about 800 grains for elkin… if I go again.

Below is a 1325 grainer I just made. Dead animal creator to about 20 or so yards.

"Dead animal creator"

 

[WalkingMan]

Regarding penetrating the big bones of animal in which the arrow impacts.... I think the point of diminishing return for an arrow on the heavy end of the spectrum, which I nor anyone I know has yet to see (hence the origial post), will have the same result as the arrow on the light end of the spectrum. That said result is the arrow stopping once hitting the bone. And unfortunately that is a result that is commonly seen with bow hunters. Objectively, unbiasly speaking, which end of the spectrum makes more sense to be on if your goal is to shoot and recover animals regarding arrow weight with everything else equal.....as in broadheads, arrow tuning, backyard still target accuracy, etc.

Are we more interested in reaching the animal at longer distances like we are with 3D targets or breaking and penetrating bone, (should that happen) once hitting the animal we want to recover. One is with the lighter mass arrow and one is with the heavier mass arrow.

My current arrow build is for a 60# Super Kodiak. I need a 30" arrow, so that narrows my choices. At 15 yards, with a 300 spine arrow, 5 gpi weight tubes, a 100 gr insert, and a 175 gr field point I get total penetration through the long axis of my broadhead target, which is about 16" of layered foam, plus about 1.5". This is a 715 gr arrow. This gets slightly more penetration than a 690 gr arrow with a 150 gr point, and about 2" more than a 665 gr arrow with the 125 gr point. Out to 20 yards the 715 and the 665 gr arrows shoot similarly The heavier arrow places about 1.5" lower than the lighter one. But if I put a 200 gr point the heavier arrow, increasing the weight to 740 gr, the flight is quite a bit slower, it shoots about 6" lower at 20 yards than the 715, and I lose about 3-4" of penetration. So the 665 gr arrow is still pretty beefy, but performance improves up to 715 gr, and drops off pretty quickly after that.

 

[Beendare]

Ive seen some incredible performance on game with 10gpp from 40#.trad bows

I was blowing through everything with 47#,553g

Its 2 blade heads …..they turn any arrow into a killing machine.

If you only shoot 15-20y shots, extra arrow weight is less of a factor…. Otherwise, trajectory wise on longer shots its a negative.

.

 

[Beendare]

It would be cool to have some sort of a force meter measuring the force of impact of an arrow as it hits a target medium. That would show a good bit of information regarding penetration potential.

Agreed, and from a Hooter shooter.

I have been saying that for decades. Its the only way to scientifically test these arrows.