Non-resident big game tag drawing

[Mtnboy]

The odds are only blown if more people want to give up their chance to draw a Deer, Elk or Antelope tag.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

The odds are only blown if more people want to give up their chance to draw a Deer, Elk or Antelope tag.

From a resident stand point they shouldn't have to, you should be able to hunt regularly in your own state without giving up those once in a lifetime hunts to do so. Now if you're purely talking about this for a non-resident system for an "all in" system its more of a talking point I guess but I still don't think its a great idea. For residents no way.

 

[Mtnboy]

You can still hunt yearly with OTC, you aren't giving up anything by having to choose just one species for the Draw hunts. The only thing you're giving up is the ability to DRAW multiple tags a year but by forcing people to choose only one Draw species, the odds for each species would increase.

Idaho would have horrendous Trophy Species draw odds like every other state does if people could put in for all 3 Trophy Species and apply for the other species.

My idea is clearly not a perfect option, but I'd certainly take it over the ridiculous schemes and point creep that other states have.

 

[JWP58]

Man, looks like things are really bad out there. Does anyone get to hunt?

 

[Mtnboy]

Man, looks like things are really bad out there. Does anyone get to hunt?

More than my wife wishes I would!!!!

If you're waiting on the messed up draw systems to get out there and hunt...well, you're just doing it wrong!

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

You can still hunt yearly with OTC, you aren't giving up anything by having to choose just one species for the Draw hunts. The only thing you're giving up is the ability to DRAW multiple tags a year but by forcing people to choose only one Draw species, the odds for each species would increase.

Idaho would have horrendous Trophy Species draw odds like every other state does if people could put in for all 3 Trophy Species and apply for the other species.

My idea is clearly not a perfect option, but I'd certainly take it over the ridiculous schemes and point creep that other states have.

In this state you certainly would be giving up hunts under that suggestion. All deer tags in CO are draw there is no OTC for deer. OTC for antelope is only archery. So to hunt deer and/or antelope (aside from bow) you have to put in for the draw which should not be at the expense of never being able to hunt the three trophy species moose/goat/sheep as far as I'm concerned.

The only point creep for elk/deer/antelope here is some select trophy hunts otherwise there is no issue drawing tags in the normal scheme. As for the trophy species, the weighted random draw is fine with me even with them separate eventually drawing a tag (speaking from resident odds) is feasible. If you have your heart set on one specific tag for any species then yeah that one specific tag might be WAY out there but pretty good tags can be had over the course of a lifetime.

 

[Sacrvrrat72]

I think you need to dig a little deeper into the math behind Nevada's draw. If you just started and think your odds are going up exponentially every year, you couldn't be more wrong. It's more likely your odds are going DOWN every year. But I guess at least they aren't zero.

Agreed. Shouldn’t have used exponentially. Don’t quite get how my odds are going down though.


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[Sacrvrrat72]

Mathematically this is simply untrue

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You are correct. Exponentially was the wrong word choice. Still like the system. Simple, rewards higher points, but everyone has a chance.


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[Sacrvrrat72]

I keep up with the Nevada draw odds, and there are a lot of hunts that even with 20+ points your odds of drawing are less than 1%. Tell me how that system is superior. I've got deer and elk points in Nevada. I'll draw a archery deer tag decades before an elk tag. It's a sucker bet system.

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Fair enough. What don’t you like about NV process? That your not guaranteed to draw at some point?

I like it because you always have a shot to draw. Case in point I drew a bull elk tag for Jarbidge last year with 5 points as a non resident non guided hunt. Got very lucky. Wouldn’t be possible in some preference point states. Liked the process best prior to drawing the tag as well. Don’t mind just a straight draw as well.


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[NoWiser]

Agreed. Shouldn’t have used exponentially. Don’t quite get how my odds are going down though.


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Look at how many times your name goes into a hat this year and how many times someone who has 20+ points name goes into the hat. Now, using the BP squared, look how many times their name goes into the hat next year and look at how many times your name goes into the hat next year. Given the high number of high point holders, there is a good chance you will have worse odds of drawing next year than you do this year, even though you'll have more points. This is why squaring bonus points is a bad idea. The top point holders only have slightly higher odds because they are competing with others on their level. Meanwhile, someone just getting into the game goes from having poor odds to basically nonexistent odds, that just get worse.

 

[5MilesBack]

Is it even possible to have a conversation with you without it eroding into some quasi-political diatribe?

Nothing I said can even be construed as political or quasi political.......just the state of affairs in today's world.

You still seem to think that you or anyone else even have a right to these tags. They are a privilege. And when you apply and wait your place in line, you're rewarded with said privilege to hunt that species. You can call it a pyramid scheme if you want, and if so......the smart choice might be to opt out of that.

A state that has used a point system the entire time can't just suddenly turn it over to a lottery. However, a lottery state could easily turn it over to a PP game.

You want access to tags that "provides opportunity for as many diverse hunters as possible". How on earth does an OTC system not provide that? And the current PP system does that as well, for those that want to play that game. Do you think that a brand new 12 year old hunter should have the exact same access to trophy units as the guys that have been playing the game for the last 25 years? You seem to advocate for fairness, but that isn't fair in the least.

Why can't folks just accept that there are places they won't ever get to hunt in Colorado. If you want equal opportunities to draw.......NM is the ticket. Plenty of opportunities out there for hunting. "But I wanted to hunt THAT unit."

 

[5MilesBack]

Man, looks like things are really bad out there. Does anyone get to hunt?

Well, if everyone wasn't a trophy hunter, there wouldn't be any draw problems.

 

[JWP58]

Well, if everyone wasn't a trophy hunter, there wouldn't be any draw problems.

This true. Talked my buddy into one of the "garbage" 100% draw odd region tags. He shot the first buck we found...160" plus some. Not a monster, but better than sitting on your thumb at home. Gotta love those lousy tags.

 

[MuleyFever]

Look at how many times your name goes into a hat this year and how many times someone who has 20+ points name goes into the hat. Now, using the BP squared, look how many times their name goes into the hat next year and look at how many times your name goes into the hat next year. Given the high number of high point holders, there is a good chance you will have worse odds of drawing next year than you do this year, even though you'll have more points. This is why squaring bonus points is a bad idea. The top point holders only have slightly higher odds because they are competing with others on their level. Meanwhile, someone just getting into the game goes from having poor odds to basically nonexistent odds, that just get worse.

Yeah, but that only applies to units that take many, many years to draw. Those units are in the minority when talking deer and elk. Most units only take a handful of points but if you're in year one or two or whatever you have zero chance in CO. At least in a system like Nevada has you have a shot at any point level. Nevadas problem is that it is using that system in a state that does not have a lot of tags. Also the 5 choices or whatever is really nice. I think Nevadas system in WY or CO would be great with as much opportunity as they have for deer and elk. I don't think one system can be good for all. A hybrid of some sort is probably the better option in most cases.

Or even just cap points amounts, I don't know. So many options really.

 

[davsco]

Most units only take a handful of points but if you're in year one or two or whatever you have zero chance in CO.

i'm just planning my first elk hunt later this year, and going thru all this draw crap for the first time, but looking at Colo, looks like a decent amount of rifle first week elk units were drawn last year by hunters with 0 pref points. am i reading their draw stats wrong, or maybe you're talking deer, or something else?

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

i'm just planning my first elk hunt later this year, and going thru all this draw crap for the first time, but looking at Colo, looks like a decent amount of rifle first week elk units were drawn last year by hunters with 0 pref points. am i reading their draw stats wrong, or maybe you're talking deer, or something else?

They're fixated on zero chance of drawing the "trophy" units without having to wait years. Not everyone saves up their pennies for years while going with out to eventually buy a Ferrari either, that doesn't make it unfair when you show up day 1 or when you choose to spend your money (points) early on something "decent".

Yes there are many bull tags you can draw with 0pt, as leftover, or OTC and you can find and kill bulls. They might not set a world record but you can still find respectable animals. I tagged a 6x5 bull in a no point unit and also a 170s buck in a 1pt unit this year. For the record if I was just starting out I wouldn't want to draw a premium unit if I didn't know what I was doing already, waste of an opportunity.

 

[DenverCountryBoy]

Regardless of the draw system, the only way to eliminate point creep is to increase supply or decrease demand for hunts. I don't think we are going to see a large increase in supply of animals, so that leaves us with decreasing demand by raising the cost for points.

 

[bigdesert10]

Regardless of the draw system, the only way to eliminate point creep is to increase supply or decrease demand for hunts. I don't think we are going to see a large increase in supply of animals, so that leaves us with decreasing demand by raising the cost for points.

I'd argue that in many cases, the supply is already there. Everyone is just fixated on farming trophy animals.

 

[cnelk]

Everyone is just fixated on farming trophy animals.

Not really.
Higher PP units are desired for more than just the trophy animals.
When hunter numbers are reduced/limited, the overall hunt experience is greater too

 

[Jethro]

For CO elk anyway, incorporate points banking and eliminate the OTC tags and make them cost some points. This would also eliminate hunting OTC and getting a point in the same year.