Non-resident big game tag drawing

[cnelk]

How would you base how many points it takes to draw that unit? If you use last year's numbers you have artificially stopped point creep.

For one, the base points would still be in effect because it will still take a certain amount of minimum PPs to draw the tag.

Using my example above, you would only be able to hunt that 4 PP unit for two years and then get more PP if desired.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I've watched several guys draw the sheep tag I want in the last few years with less than 1/4 of the weighted points I have. So who knows.

The weighted CO point draws (moose/sheep/goat) seem about the fairest system that has crossed my path for the reason you demonstrated (you on the negative, friends on the positive). Its still random but tilted towards those who've been in it longer but not guaranteed thus you have a slim chance early on. Sometimes while you see the tag distribution on a hunt average 3+9 there might be one person at 3+12 and one at 3+2.

Recap from above for those that don't know the CO weighted draws you need 3 regular points to get a foot in the door, after that those hunts assign a weighted preference point. So one you have 3 regular points you are "in the draw" and you are assigned a number which is then randomized during the draw process. Those with weighted points have their number divided by the weighted points. Lowest resulting number draws the tag.

Granted, it's better than a straight preference point system like Colorado.

Just to clarify the elk/deer/antelope are straight preference, the moose/sheep/goat are weighted as described above. Most of the state other than a couple trophy areas you can draw with a couple points for elk/deer/antelope so straight preference there seems okay and is generally predictable. Yes if you're going for one of the most premium hunts (area or weapon class in a better time of the season) they yes those hunts definitely drift away with point creep but still a lot of decent hunts on the table yearly (and predictably) in the current system for the "common" species. It would suck as a resident planning for meat harvest in the fall to be waiting on randomized draws for the common meat species in the state.

 

[cnelk]

Recap from above for those that don't know the CO weighted draws you need 3 regular points to get a foot in the door,

Not necessarily.
There are circumstances that NonRes have drawn a moose tag [cow] with 0 PPs/0weighted, and sometimes on their 2nd choice

 

[NoWiser]

Colorado should allow for groups to combine and avg points rather than use lowest point holders number only, this provides a way for older hunters to take newer hunters out and families to hunt together still.
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And then you get a situation like AZ where certain hunters buy points for nonhunting family and friends and apply as a party to draw mid tier units every single year. Colorado doesn't do a lot right with their straight PP system, but not averaging points is a very good thing.

 

[realunlucky]

And then you get a situation like AZ where certain hunters buy points for nonhunting family and friends and apply as a party to draw mid tier units every single year. Colorado doesn't do a lot right with their straight PP system, but not averaging points is a very good thing.

Az problem is different. If you make it so all members of a group have to keep or forfit tags you don't get those problems. When you allow some group members ( high point holder) to turn in tags while others (low point holder) keep them then you get Az problems.

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[realunlucky]

For one, the base points would still be in effect because it will still take a certain amount of minimum PPs to draw the tag.

Using my example above, you would only be able to hunt that 4 PP unit for two years and then get more PP if desired.

This is the same as adding additional people to the 4 point pool. You have increased point creep you just dropped it down a couple tiers.
What happens in point banking when more people than tags apply but now you capped the required amount of points to draw already?
The required points should increase until demand is met. Sure in theory no point creep but you have increased the points of each unsuccessful applicant which is really-- point creep.
When demand is higher than oppertunity someone has to miss out.

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[NoWiser]

Az problem is different. If you make it so all members of a group have to keep or forfit tags you don't get those problems. When you allow some group members ( high point holder) to turn in tags while others (low point holder) keep them then you get Az problems.

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I wish that were the case, but there are plenty of people who can afford to throw away the other tag and go hunt themselves. I know someone personally who has done this for years in AZ, well before PointGuard came around. From his perspective (as an AZ resident) it's still way cheaper than hunting out of state. It's probably less of an issue for NR hunters with high tag costs, although I'm sure it still happens.

 

[cnelk]

This is the same as adding additional people to the 4 point pool. You have increased point creep you just dropped it down a couple tiers.
What happens in point banking when more people than tags apply but now you capped the required amount of points to draw already?
The required points should increase until demand is met. Sure in theory no point creep but you have increased the points of each unsuccessful applicant which is really-- point creep.
When demand is higher than oppertunity someone has to miss out.

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Remember - nobody would force anyone to apply for the 4 PP unit or even use the Point Banking system.
People could still just apply for a PP and wait until they are old and gray and hope they draw their desired unit

But, from what Im hearing and seeing, people are getting out of the PP game, and then there is the decline in young hunters

In a few short years, we should see the high PP holders level off and/or even decline

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Not necessarily.
There are circumstances that NonRes have drawn a moose tag [cow] with 0 PPs/0weighted, and sometimes on their 2nd choice

Fair enough, I was speaking from the resident side. Technically your point stands there too, sometimes a brand new hunt won't attract eyes yet and will go before 3points. But for the most part (esp. resident drawings) they are booked up pretty full such that 3pts is the unofficial entry minimum statistically. IE prior to 3pts you aren't in the running at all if there are more folks with 3points in the drawing than there are tags, after you have 3points you have that slim chance that grows over the years.

 

[realunlucky]

I wish that were the case, but there are plenty of people who can afford to throw away the other tag and go hunt themselves. I know someone personally who has done this for years in AZ, well before PointGuard came around. From his perspective (as an AZ resident) it's still way cheaper than hunting out of state. It's probably less of an issue for NR hunters with high tag costs, although I'm sure it still happens.

If those points are gone after drawing it really makes no great impact. One guy spending 10 and two guys with 15 and 5 still moves the line. Problem in AZ is one guy turns his in and keeps his points and shares with someone else next year increasing point creep and cheating those point holders in that tier.

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[Mtnboy]

What if all draws were like the Idaho Trophy Species Draw?

You pick one species to put in for and that's it. Seems to me odds for all draws would be a lot better if everyone didn't get to put in for every single species?

 

[realunlucky]

Remember - nobody would force anyone to apply for the 4 PP unit or even use the Point Banking system.
People could still just apply for a PP and wait until they are old and gray and hope they draw their desired unit

But, from what Im hearing and seeing, people are getting out of the PP game, and then there is the decline in young hunters

In a few short years, we should see the high PP holders level off and/or even decline

I don't see point banking as the answer. Sure you could move the top stack around but not without impacting in a big way the middle to bottom of the stack. If you don't remove people from the pool your not solving anything just moving who is impacted the most.

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[cnelk]

There is another way and it recently has been implemented.

Create more high PP seasons - like they did last year in unit 61 - in the 'quiet time'

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

What if all draws were like the Idaho Trophy Species Draw?

You pick one species to put in for and that's it. Seems to me odds for all draws would be a lot better if everyone didn't get to put in for every single species?

Problem is I don't think folks are necessarily bitching about the trophy species alone, sounds like they are including the freezer filler species (yes there are trophy hunts for deer/elk/antelope but those are also the yearly food hunts).

 

[realunlucky]

There is another way and it recently has been implemented.

Create more high PP seasons - like they did last year in unit 61 - in the 'quiet time'

This is the only way create more opportunities. Question is can they do that without impacting the resource? That's the real balancing act for sure.

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[Mtnboy]

Problem is I don't think folks are necessarily bitching about the trophy species alone, sounds like they are including the freezer filler species (yes there are trophy hunts for deer/elk/antelope but those are also the yearly food hunts).

Yeah I get that, but if people had to choose, those wanting just a Cow tag (or other freezer filler) wouldn't be competing with the guys who want a Trophy Muley tag and also put in for a Cow tag just because. And vice versa, guys wanting a trophy tag wouldn't be competing with guys who want to fill the freezer but also put in for a Trophy Muley tag just because they can.

People would be forced to prioritize.

Maybe not a perfect system, but it's the reason Trophy Draws in Idaho have such good odds in my opinion. Only the committed put in for them.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Yeah I get that, but if people had to choose, those wanting just a Cow tag (or other freezer filler) wouldn't be competing with the guys who want a Trophy Muley tag and also put in for a Cow tag just because. And vice versa, guys wanting a trophy tag wouldn't be competing with guys who want to fill the freezer but also put in for a Trophy Muley tag just because they can.

People would be forced to prioritize.

Maybe not a perfect system, but it's the reason Trophy Draws in Idaho have such good odds in my opinion. Only the committed put in for them.

Why should a resident have to dismiss their long term hopes of a trophy species hunt so they can draw a 0pt first choice elk tag annually for instance? Folks in other states with their annual deer hunts aren't having to give those up to pursue the draw. Its a separate matter if talking about the same species as the Idaho "trophy" draw versus ALL of the species in a state.

 

[sneaky]

Everyone gets a shot, but your odds go up exponentially the more points you have. In a preference point state if you are just one year behind you literally have no shot and in some cases that will never change in a lifetime. Could just be I like it because it gives someone like me who is behind in points a better opportunity.


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I keep up with the Nevada draw odds, and there are a lot of hunts that even with 20+ points your odds of drawing are less than 1%. Tell me how that system is superior. I've got deer and elk points in Nevada. I'll draw a archery deer tag decades before an elk tag. It's a sucker bet system.

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[sneaky]

The thing is.....nobody is being forced to buy points, and nobody is being forced to hunt. I accept that I will most likely never hunt in a lot of states, and I definitely won't be hunting in a lot of top units.....even in my own state. I know that, and I accept that. So what do I do? I pick up tags I can get, and hunt what I can. Heck, I see people putting in for almost every western state, which is fine. But I hardly even want to give up a single Colorado elk season to hunt another state, even an OTC season. All this talk about points, and we still have states that offer unlimited OTC elk tags. Unlimited........you can hunt every single year!

I've tried to schedule an OTC Idaho elk hunt, and I never can seem to find a place to slip it into my CO elk schedule. For me, that's too many options. What I really need, is a southern hemisphere elk hunt so I can get another season in, in March.

There's elk in New Zealand and Argentina. Problem solved.

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[sneaky]

What if all draws were like the Idaho Trophy Species Draw?

You pick one species to put in for and that's it. Seems to me odds for all draws would be a lot better if everyone didn't get to put in for every single species?

They've blown those odds now too, though. You don't have to front the tag money. 10 buck application fee is it. At least that's what they were floating around as an option.

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