Lobbying Wyoming game and fish negatively affecting non-resident elk hunters

[Bighorner]

I know this is like trying to stop two pigs from fighting over an apple, but the reality is with or without the 90/10 change, you I and the rest of the point holders sitting on anything less that 15 points for a sheep are probably out of luck regardless of residency.

The goal post did move. You are absolutely right. The sheep and moose population has dropped significantly since the point system was introduced. You can not hunt what is not there. If everyone who was "Guarenteed" to draw got to harvest a sheep, we simply would not have any left.

 

[tdhanses]

I know this is like trying to stop two pigs from fighting over an apple, but the reality is with or without the 90/10 change, you I and the rest of the point holders sitting on anything less that 15 points for a sheep are probably out of luck regardless of residency.

The goal post did move. You are absolutely right. The sheep and moose population has dropped significantly since the point system was introduced. You can not hunt what is not there. If everyone who was "Guarenteed" to draw got to harvest a sheep, we simply would not have any left.

With the population drop are they reducing the tags available as well then to help them bounce back?

 

[Bighorner]

With the population drop are they reducing the tags available as well then to help them bounce back?

Yes. They have been reducing tags. They are not bouncing back. The state is actively trying to keep sheep going. That's the problem. Sheep are not particularly hardy animals. They are extremely susceptible to disease spread by domestic sheep. I'm in no way an expert, but I try to pay attention. I know a lot of people really want a sheep, but I would much rather see the population grow than to be obligated to hand out tags to please the masses.

The State of Wyoming's Wild Sheep with Steve Kilpatrick - Wyoming Wildlife Federation

The State of Wyoming's Wild Sheep with Steve Kilpatrick - Wyoming Wildlife Federation

Steve Kilpatrick was a habitat biologist for over 30 years before becoming executive director of the Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation. His experience with wild

wyomingwildlife.org

 

[tdhanses]

Yes. They have been reducing tags. They are not bouncing back. The state is actively trying to keep sheep going. That's the problem. Sheep are not particularly hardy animals. They are extremely susceptible to disease spread by domestic sheep. I'm in no way an expert, but I try to pay attention. I know a lot of people really want a sheep, but I would much rather see the population grow than to be obligated to hand out tags to please the masses.

The State of Wyoming's Wild Sheep with Steve Kilpatrick - Wyoming Wildlife Federation

The State of Wyoming's Wild Sheep with Steve Kilpatrick - Wyoming Wildlife Federation

Steve Kilpatrick was a habitat biologist for over 30 years before becoming executive director of the Wyoming Wild Sheep Foundation. His experience with wild

wyomingwildlife.org

Sounds like maybe hunting could be halted for a little till they rebound, I also would rather see sheep on the mountain. When you see decline numbers like that it’s time to make a drastic change really, the big change from 1960 to today is crazy.

 

[BuzzH]

With the population drop are they reducing the tags available as well then to help them bounce back?

How does killing rams help populations bounce back? Or more to the point, hunting a few keep them from bouncing back?

Unlike lots of other species, its pretty darn easy to focus harvest on older rams. In many areas the rams being killed are no longer even breeding.

Research that I've read seems to suggest most breeding is done by rams aged 6-8. Some areas in Wyoming the average age of rams killed is as high as 12.

In most cases, cow moose permits have been eliminated as well.

 

[tdhanses]

How does killing rams help populations bounce back? Or more to the point, hunting a few keep them from bouncing back?

In most cases, cow moose permits have been eliminated as well.

No ewe tags? To go from 60k to 5k is huge and maybe less press on the herd overall could help, no idea i’m not the sheep expert but does’t seem like what WY is doing is making a difference if numbers keep declining.

 

[BuzzH]

No ewe tags?

Just recently started to issue a small number in unit 5 and now 7 I believe.

I'll agree with you that I'm not all that cracked up about that, I find it hard to believe that the best use of a ewe bighorn is to let hunters kill them.

Sometimes, though transplanting from some of these herds is problematic because they could be spreading diseases around as many of these herds have sheep with lots of disease issues.

 

[Bighorner]

Sounds like maybe hunting could be halted for a little till they rebound, I also would rather see sheep on the mountain.

The tags currently are very limited. There is a lot of focus on how to get the sheep going again. My understanding is when the population does start to do good it expands. When it bumps up to domestic sheep the herd is exposed to disease which can spread rapidly through the population with a high mortality rate. It's really a while other can of worms. The same is true for moose populations. I'm sure someone smarter than me can list the reasons, but the bottom line is the populations are not thriving in the way they were expected to when the point system was put in place. There was a realization that the current model for tag allocation is broken and needs addressed.

I really do appreciate that people are upset that the oppertunity they thought was there is being reduced, but the allocation system was broke and the best time to fix it is today, not in five years when it's even more upside down.

 

[tdhanses]

Just recently started to issue a small number in unit 5 and now 7 I believe.

I'll agree with you that I'm not all that cracked up about that, I find it hard to believe that the best use of a ewe bighorn is to let hunters kill them.

Sometimes, though transplanting from some of these herds is problematic because they could be spreading diseases around as many of these herds have sheep with lots of disease issues.

Yeah I know there is a big push to keep domestic sheep far from them.

 

[BuzzH]

No ewe tags? To go from 60k to 5k is huge and maybe less press on the herd overall could help, no idea i’m not the sheep expert but does’t seem like what WY is doing is making a difference if numbers keep declining.

Actually unit 7 and 12 this year have ewe permits. Pretty sure they have issued some in 5 in the past.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Get%20Involved/2022%20April%20Regulations/CH-9-draft-03-16-2022-3_1.pdf

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah I know there is a big push to keep domestic sheep far from them.

Also a push to not spread disease via moving the wild sheep around too much.

 

[tdhanses]

The tags currently are very limited. There is a lot of focus on how to get the sheep going again. My understanding is when the population does start to do good it expands. When it bumps up to domestic sheep the herd is exposed to disease which can spread rapidly through the population with a high mortality rate. It's really a while other can of worms. The same is true for moose populations. I'm sure someone smarter than me can list the reasons, but the bottom line is the populations are not thriving in the way they were expected to when the point system was put in place. There was a realization that the current model for tag allocation is broken and needs addressed.

I really do appreciate that people are upset that the oppertunity they thought was there is being reduced, but the allocation system was broke and the best time to fix it is today, not in five years when it's even more upside down.

And I think most would of fully understood if it was just a reducing overall tags, the one positive I see is making these OIL.

 

[Bighorner]

Males are not the limiting factor in a population. Removing one male makes room for one more female.

The game and fish also probably realizes what has been shown so many times on this thread, if a portion of the population doesn't get to shoot at it they don't care about it.

 

[BuzzH]

And I think most would of fully understood if it was just a reducing overall tags, the one positive I see is making these OIL.

They have been reducing ram tags as needed as well.

When I had my tag I saw more than 100 rams that were 3/4 curl or better in the 26 days I hunted, good numbers of young rams too. Lots of ewes and lamb numbers were pretty solid.

They issued 20 ram tags for that area.

The GF also takes photos, plugs, and ages every single ram taken. If they see the average ages starting to decline, they usually back off on tag numbers.

 

[RMM]

Also a push to not spread disease via moving the wild sheep around too much.

How effective have the efforts been to keep domestic sheep away from wild sheep?

 

[BuzzH]

How effective have the efforts been to keep domestic sheep away from wild sheep?

Depends on the specific herds, but generally pretty good. There is one specific landowner that is a problem in one area.

Units I worry about are 17, 19 but those are doing really well.

 

[bsnedeker]

What part of, "If it was deleted its not going to be found" is confusing? Your strawman argument of "Nothing is ever deleted on the internet" is a little ridiculous. Post something on here, delete it, then try to find it for me. I'll wait.

lol... you don't know what strawman means, do you?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

 

[RMM]

Depends on the specific herds

Is there any type of buffer zone for wild herds vs domestic grazing permits? Sanctions for people violating buffers?

 

[Bighorner]

Just a really quick glance at the NR draw odds. It looks like 37 tags were issued, max points was 26 and there were about 1400 people in the 22 point pool. So your looking at around 37 years just to chew through the 22 point holders. I'm sure I got something wrong please feel free to point it out if I did.

Like I said, the system is broken and is not sustainable. Tell me how 90/10 has cheated the guy with 10 points?

 

[BuzzH]

Is there any type of buffer zone for wild herds vs domestic grazing permits? Sanctions for people violating buffers?

No sanctions that I'm aware of, there is an incredible amount of collaboration with the domestic sheep industry to keep them separated.

There is one really bad actor in Wyoming that is impossible to deal with.

Bighorns, bears and bad blood: grazing v. wildlife on Owl Creek - WyoFile

Game and Fish, BLM, wildlife conservationists and a rancher are locked in battle over bighorn sheep, grazing permits and cattle-killing grizzlies.

wyofile.com