Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Newtosavage]

I was hoping for a separate thread about the basis for (or lack thereof) the dangers of lead. Should I start another?

Be my guest. I'm sure it will be a meme target rich environment!

 

[Newtosavage]

I have shot both, mainly lead.

I would have no problem using copper if it were as effective and efficient.

I still crimp my split shot sinkers with my teeth. Probably won’t let my daughter though

That made me laugh because I'm right there with you on the sinkers. But, since I started loading monos, I've found I have consistently better groups from one range trip to the other. Maybe it's confirmation bias, but I just feel like monos are the easy button when it comes to working up accurate loads. I don't like surprises at the bench either and I feel like I get those more often from conventional bullets. Small sample size I know but that's the vibe I get.

 

[rayporter]

so you are wanting people to tell you lead is bad?

former splicer here. i have breathed more lead fumes than most people have sucked in oxygen.

 

[fwafwow]

so you are wanting people to tell you lead is bad?

former splicer here. i have breathed more lead fumes than most people have sucked in oxygen.

I would like a reasoned discussion with more than feelings and anecdotes - whichever way it goes. There are some pretty conclusory statements in the other thread, on both sides, but only a few with backup. And the backup support has been questioned.

No offense, but saying you haven’t had ill effects from breathing lead sounds like many (including in my own family) who said cigarettes weren’t harmful because grandpa smoked 2 packs a day from age 16 “and he lived to 94!” For what it’s worth, I don’t think anyone in the other thread is questioning lead being bad for you, just that it may (or may not) be harmful when eating lead in game meat.

 

[Drenalin]

I would like a reasoned discussion with more than feelings and anecdotes....

You sir, are barking up the wrong proverbial tree. This is, after all, an internet forum, where carpenters are chemists and stay at home dads are MDs.

 

[t_carlson]

I use both but prefer lead to monos. Lead just kills better and does more damage.

 

[WildBoose]

Mule deer and smaller----7mm08 150gr ELD-X. I am looking for something that has good weight retention but also a little "destruction".

Mule deer and bigger---300wm 180ttsx. I want 100% or close to it weight retention on larger animals. Bigger bodies, bigger bones, bigger muscles, etc...

Mule deer could go either way in my opinion, situational.

 

[robby denning]

You sir, are barking up the wrong proverbial tree. This is, after all, an internet forum, where carpenters are chemists and stay at home dads are MDs.

hey quit talking about our forum like that

 

[HandgunHTR]

I have, and use, both. It really depends on the situation and what my particular firearm likes. I had a Remington Model 7 that absolutely hated anything but Sierra ProHunters, so that is what it got fed.
I have an Encore barrel in 6.5 Grendel that shoots just about anything fine, but I have found I get really great results at the range, and on game using the Cavity Back MKZ monos.

I am in the process of developing loads for a moose hunt with a .300 WM. I will try Partitions, Accubonds, and TSXs because I want a bullet that will penetrate. Whichever of these shoots best will be the bullet that I use.

I guess my main point is that I don't let whether it is lead or not influence my decision. Do I know that lead exposure is bad. Yes. That is proven. Do I think that my shooting lead ammo or using primers with lead in them or eating of game shot with lead bullets will expose me to dangerous levels of lead? No.

I am much more likely to die because I smoked for 20 years, or because some asshole will run a red light and cream me, or because something else that I am exposed to will give me cancer. But that is just me.

 

[Newtosavage]

I use both but prefer lead to monos. Lead just kills better and does more damage.

I totally get that reasoning. One thing I've noticed about monos is the lack of damage which is something I appreciate when I'm cleaning the critter. I detest blood-shot meat.

 

[49ereric]

100% lead. No fancy bullets needed either mostly use Sierra PH round nose 180’s in the dense woods here.
Used plenty of Sierra PH 180 grain semi pointed spitzer in .308 win that loves em.
flat based spitzer type bullets of any maker are gtg.

 

[Rick M.]

Not sure I really want to jump into this dumpster fire.

I actually use both. Just depends on what the rifle likes and what I’m using the bullet for. I typically use lead for target practice and monos on big game, lead on varmints for explosive results, lead for really long shots. My personal max range on game is 600 yards so the lower B.C. found on most monos isn’t really that big of deal and can be mostly negated by driving them faster. Example I’ve got a 7-08ai that uses 140gr absolute hammers at 3003fps and 168 Berger VLDs at 2700. Inside 600 yards the hammer ballistics beat the the Berger, beyond that the Berger takes over. Just an example that I’m sure can be picked apart. As far as in game performance I guess I haven’t really seen much of a difference. And I’ve killed between 6-10 big game animals per year for the last 6 or 7 years.

What's barrel length on that 7-08 AI?

 

[Northpark]

What's barrel length on that 7-08 AI?

It’s a 24” proof CF barrel.

 

[Flyjunky]

I’ll always use lead until a mono is developed that has as good bc and terminal performance.

Right now, if I had to use mono, it would most likely be a cutting edge.

 

[Rick M.]

I would like a reasoned discussion with more than feelings and anecdotes - whichever way it goes. There are some pretty conclusory statements in the other thread, on both sides, but only a few with backup. And the backup support has been questioned.

No offense, but saying you haven’t had ill effects from breathing lead sounds like many (including in my own family) who said cigarettes weren’t harmful because grandpa smoked 2 packs a day from age 16 “and he lived to 94!” For what it’s worth, I don’t think anyone in the other thread is questioning lead being bad for you, just that it may (or may not) be harmful when eating lead in game meat.

I tried to attach most of the research and state guidelines that I've used to make my personal decision in the other thread, as I've gone through most of the available studies out there, from the US and abroad. I'll post it again here.

People tend to find flaws in the research, whether it's the methodology used, or the entity funding the research, or what's actually being studied, etc. For me personally, I still trust the integrity of the researchers / universities / DNR departments in question, because I tend to be an optimist and would like to think that scientists are interested in truths, not predetermined outcomes. I'm also not prone to conspiracy theories and doomsday takes. Call me naive, but that's my take. Yes, the study may be funded by an avian interest group, but the scientists are still just taking meat, looking for lead fragmentation / dispersal, and publishing the results. When said results, across multiple DNR departments, multiple universities, and multiple separate countries align, that's more than enough for me to come to a personal decision. But to each their own. It can be hard to have your beliefs challenged, and some folks just don't take too kindly to it.

In my opinion, it's pretty much common sense that lead in the body is pernicious. I don't need to wait for a study to come out stating that lead isn't good for me to make the personal decision to minimize it in my body and those of my kids for the time being. We know that lead from paint and gasoline were proven to be unsafe, and the inorganic lead in ammunition, while absorbed into the bloodstream more slowly than organic lead, is still not what I would consider to be a healthy part of one's diet.

One doesn't need a PhD to understand that ingesting lead particles (even microscopic), on a regular basis, over a period of years is likely no bueno. I think it's awesome that people have grandparents that ate lead-shot game meat their entire lives and still lived to be a hundred, but let's also agree that there are many of those same anecdotes for smokers, and yet we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that smoking is not good for your health. I also get that some people take the tough guy stance, and claim that eating lead is way down their list of worries. Cool, I guess? Whatever floats your boat.

My personal choice is to use copper monos. Why? Because I want to. Because they are available, group well, kill game well, preserve edible meat portions well, and remove any concerns of consuming lead particles. My decision is to err on the side of caution, because I can, and because this is America, and we have innovators that solve problems, and I like to support said innovators.

Do I think all states should follow California in banning lead projectiles? No. Do I feel that I have read enough research to conclude that lead ends up in my meat, and that there's a better alternative? Yup.

Lastly, I'm not going to go back and forth with people on this thread regarding interest groups, government conspiracies, or personal anecdotes. I'm simply presenting my personal choice and the research / data behind my decision. I encourage everyone else to do what makes them happy.

Here are the same links I posted in the other thread.
Michigan DNR: https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/managing-resources/wildlife/deer/precaution-about-lead-in-venison

Michigan DNR: https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Pr...lies.pdf?rev=66a1fb2c45b3456bb73aecb00e60ed04

Minnesota DNR bullet fragmentation study: https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/ammo/lead-short-summary.html

Connecticut: https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/Hunting/Lead-Bullet-Fragments-in-Wild-Game

American Journal of Medicine: https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(16)30021-3/pdf

German study: https://www.bfr.bund.de/en/press_in..._risk_for_certain_consumer_groups-127610.html

NZ: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/...-could-make-you-sick-researcher-warns-hunters

American Journal of Public Health: https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2022.307069

Lead toxicity: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4961898/

Lead toxicity: https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/leadtoxicity/what_lead.html

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I was hoping for a separate thread about the basis for (or lack thereof) the dangers of lead. Should I start another?

Metallic lead in ammunition has no significant impact on human health and the environment as compared to other forms of lead. Lead fragments in game meat, if ingested, cannot be directly absorbed by the human body because they are in metallic form” (AFEMS/WFSW 2015).

 

[JGRaider]

Rick M, your sources are a bunch of libtards and socialists, so I choose not to believe them. We're even.

All you have to do is walk in any public place, store, restaurant, etc in America and see that it's lardasssed citizens should be way more concerned with putting down the Snicker bars and Dr Pepper and get some excercise. We're home to a bunch of out of shape, overweight lazy people. That's far more concerning than dying from lead ingestion. As a matter of fact, I can't find a single person who's ever died from it.

 

[fwafwow]

Rick M, your sources are a bunch of libtards and socialists, so I choose not to believe them. We're even.

I started to ask which are socialists, but im guessing you may be exaggerating. Are there any sources you would trust, ideally any who have done some level of research to show lead in meat is fine? I’d think at least some non-libtards and capitalists would have interest in that result.

All you have to do is walk in any public place, store, restaurant, etc in America and see that it's lardasssed citizens should be way more concerned with putting down the Snicker bars and Dr Pepper and get some excercise. We're home to a bunch of out of shape, overweight lazy people. That's far more concerning than dying from lead ingestion. As a matter of fact, I can't find a single person who's ever died from it.

I don’t disagree that there are plenty of food and meds we have been eating and taking that pose significant risks. But I think we can benefit of knowing more about many things. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

 

[Flyjunky]

Rick M, your sources are a bunch of libtards and socialists, so I choose not to believe them. We're even.

All you have to do is walk in any public place, store, restaurant, etc in America and see that it's lardasssed citizens should be way more concerned with putting down the Snicker bars and Dr Pepper and get some excercise. We're home to a bunch of out of shape, overweight lazy people. That's far more concerning than dying from lead ingestion. As a matter of fact, I can't find a single person who's ever died from it.

, about sums up my feelings about pretty much every health problem in this country.

 

[JGRaider]

I'm betting Rick M and maybe this fwa fellow believe everything Fauci and the CDC told them as well.