McGuire Ballistics field and terminal reports

[SDHNTR]

This was a 28 Nosler and 168GR lot test from last year. Single feeds and magazine feeds from three different lots shot together. Target on the right is at 800 yards. The difference is internal and unmeasurable.

Ok, so this might help explain some of the difficulties you are experiencing. This is a site of enthusiasts that is not your average consumer. We are thinkers. People here do not take claims from bullet, gun, scope, whatever manufacturers simply at their word without a rational and empirically supported explanation. You can’t just say that something happens because it does and the difference is “internal and not measurable” and expect this crowd to buy it. Please explain. How exactly is that single feed bullet different than the mag feed and what makes them have the same poi?

I want to believe and in order to do that I must understand. Let’s try again. How can two different projectiles with two different construction methods impact the exact same? Something has to give. The shape/dimensions and/or BC has to change. Both of which would change poi, especially at range. Right? If not please tell me how and why I’m wrong. No snark intended. I love to learn.

 

[amassi]

Ooh nice
Coyote—->prairie dog, can we get a chipmunk next?
Maybe then a hummingbird


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Ok, so this might help explain some of the difficulties you are experiencing. This is a site of enthusiasts that is not your average consumer. We are thinkers. People here do not take claims from bullet, gun, scope, whatever manufacturers simply at their word without a rational and empirically supported explanation. You can’t just say that something happens because it does and the difference is “internal and not measurable” and expect this crowd to buy it. Please explain. How exactly is that single feed bullet different than the mag feed and what makes them have the same poi?

I want to believe and in order to do that I must understand. Let’s try again. How can two different projectiles with two different construction methods impact the exact same? Something has to give. The shape/dimensions and/or BC has to change. Both of which would change poi, especially at range. Right? If not please tell me how and why I’m wrong. No snark intended. I love to learn.

I totally understand, trust but verify. I will leave the POI question for someone else to answer. Hopefully a third party can verify.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

Ooh nice
Coyote—->prairie dog, can we get a chipmunk next?
Maybe then a hummingbird


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Does that work better for you sir?
300 PRC
190 Proto
3100MV 22"barrel
200 Yards

 

[JFK]

Tough crowd.

I’ve got some on order and will be shooting them to 700 yards.

 

[atmat]

@fngTony - Is this thread even allowed? Seems like pure advertising from a non-Sponsor, particularly because the owner isn’t addressing questions.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

@fngTony - Is this thread even allowed? Seems like pure advertising from a non-Sponsor, particularly because the owner isn’t addressing questions.

Some clarification on a few things would be fantastic. @fngTony

 

[fngTony]

Some clarification on a few things would be fantastic. @fngTony

I haven’t had time to read it entirely but in general there can’t be any advertising by non sponsors. I haven’t seen anything on those lines so far.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Ok, so this might help explain some of the difficulties you are experiencing. This is a site of enthusiasts that is not your average consumer. We are thinkers. People here do not take claims from bullet, gun, scope, whatever manufacturers simply at their word without a rational and empirically supported explanation. You can’t just say that something happens because it does and the difference is “internal and not measurable” and expect this crowd to buy it. Please explain. How exactly is that single feed bullet different than the mag feed and what makes them have the same poi?

I want to believe and in order to do that I must understand. Let’s try again. How can two different projectiles with two different construction methods impact the exact same? Something has to give. The shape/dimensions and/or BC has to change. Both of which would change poi, especially at range. Right? If not please tell me how and why I’m wrong. No snark intended. I love to learn.

What I have interpreted is the tips of the mag fed ones are a little thicker internally in areas, the outside form factor is exactly the same and the weight difference/balance of the slightly thicker walls of the bullet tip are generally miniscule in terms of affecting point of impact.

IE the outside of the egg is the same but one shell is just a lil bit thicker to handle a little more rougher handling. And/or one shell is thinner in areas to break easier, however you want to look at it.

@SMC_GUIDE does that sound accurate? No one is asking about explicitly how you manufacture these or anything but I think its transparent to clarify a little bit.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

So it sounds like these bullets generally start peeling somewhat uniformly (not individual petals) and if that is consistent they tend to maintain bullet forward but if inconsistent symmetrically they start tumbling? Is there a velocity in which these tend to shear all petals and just maintain a shank?

 

[SDHNTR]

What I have interpreted is the tips of the mag fed ones are a little thicker internally in areas, the outside form factor is exactly the same and the weight difference/balance of the slightly thicker walls of the bullet tip are generally miniscule in terms of affecting point of impact.

IE the outside of the egg is the same but one shell is just a lil bit thicker to handle a little more rougher handling. And/or one shell is thinner in areas to break easier, however you want to look at it.

@SMC_GUIDE does that sound accurate? No one is asking about explicitly how you manufacture these or anything but I think its transparent to clarify a little bit.

I don’t see how that can be possible. If the outside profile of the bullet remains the exact same, yet you move material around to either make the tip thicker or thinner to control expansion, that material has to go somewhere in order to keep the weight the same. Something has to give. So what gives in these things?

If they weigh the exact same and the shape is the exact same, as claimed, something isn’t adding up. This isn’t magic. Ballistics is science. Everything can be explained.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I don’t see how that can be possible. If the outside profile of the bullet remains the exact same, yet you move material around to either make the tip thicker or thinner to control expansion, that material has to go somewhere in order to keep the weight the same. Something has to give. So what gives in these things. This isn’t magic. Ballistics is science. Everything can be explained.

The weight likely isn't EXACTLY the same but the difference is so small it doesn't matter is my take. IE maybe the single feed version is 100gr and the mag one is 100.1gr type of situation. All I think we're talking about is a little bit of material on the inner walls of the tip. I made up those numbers obviously, I haven't seen these in person.

Or I could be entirely off base, that is just what I've assumed based on limited info.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

What I have interpreted is the tips of the mag fed ones are a little thicker internally in areas, the outside form factor is exactly the same and the weight difference/balance of the slightly thicker walls of the bullet tip are generally miniscule in terms of affecting point of impact.

IE the outside of the egg is the same but one shell is just a lil bit thicker to handle a little more rougher handling. And/or one shell is thinner in areas to break easier, however you want to look at it.

@SMC_GUIDE does that sound accurate? No one is asking about explicitly how you manufacture these or anything but I think its transparent to clarify a little bit.

Very well said and a good way of describing it.

 

[Wrench]

I might be able to burn one of each in half on my mill....or maybe Sam has that handy already.

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

So it sounds like these bullets generally start peeling somewhat uniformly (not individual petals) and if that is consistent they tend to maintain bullet forward but if inconsistent symmetrically they start tumbling? Is there a velocity in which these tend to shear all petals and just maintain a shank?
View attachment 800307

This is a recovered bullet out of a 7mm Remington Magnum 143gr crsf. Bull was mid 600 yards. The bullets do not tumble as a function but can happen secondary if destabilized enough. When we recover bullets the front is gone or they are expanded. We have allot of data to back this up. The bullet on the bottom was a expansion falure that tumbled. 6mm 93gr. Tumbling bullets can do allot of damage but that is not how ours work.

 

[SDHNTR]

Very well said and a good way of describing it.

OK then, so the weight isn’t exactly the same? What kind of difference are we talking about?

 

[SMC_GUIDE]

OK then, so the weight isn’t exactly the same? What kind of difference are we talking about?

All bullets are held to a tolerance of .5GR

 

[SDHNTR]

This is a recovered bullet from a bull mid 600 yards. The bullets do not tumble as a function but can happen secondary if destabilized enough. When we recover bullets the front is gone or they are expanded. We have allot of data to back this up. The bullet on the right was a expansion falure that tumbled. Tumbling bullets can do allot of damage but that is not how ours work.

Which bullet was shot at 600+ yards and from what? Those appear to be two different bullets. And that Hunter wins an award for the strangest elk hanging technique!

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

When we recover bullets the front is gone or they are expanded. We have allot of data to back this up. The bullet on the right was a expansion falure that tumbled. Tumbling bullets can do allot of damage but that is not how ours work.

Bold part means the shank is left right? Just making sure I interpreted correctly. In those instances did you recover any of the petals?

 

[SDHNTR]

I might be able to burn one of each in half on my mill....or maybe Sam has that handy already.

That would be helpful. This is like pulling teeth!